The following is a guest post from Kelly the Kitchen Kop.
This post was born out of a phone call. I was on the phone with Kelly one morning, whining that I couldn’t get Kate to sleep in her own bed. The only way I could get her to sleep was if I would lie down with her. Since I work late so many nights, she was staying up until 10 or 11 pm every night. I was also complaining that I hated taking baths and playing Barbies with Kate. Kelly set me straight. (UPDATE: I take that back. I DID get an argument last night. But after I explained that if she didn’t get in bed, there would be NO sourdough waffles and NO TV today, she fell asleep within 15 minutes in her own bed.)
Her advice worked great for us. In less than a week, 4-year-old Kate is now sleeping in her own bed and she goes to sleep easily without an argument. And no more bathtub Barbies for me!
Thanks so much, Kelly, I couldn’t have done it without you!
Parenting Tips (That Really Work) from an Imperfect Parent
When Ann Marie asked me to write this guest post, at first I said, “These parenting tips aren’t exactly health or nutrition related…” But then it hit me that they are mental health related! They help preserve your sanity and just as important, they help you to enjoy your kids.
Before we go further, let’s be clear: My husband, Kent and I don’t have this parenting thing down by any means. For one thing, we’re both yellers, even though we know it’s not exactly productive. As a matter of fact I just yelled at our almost 10 year old daughter 30 seconds ago because she wants her Nintendo DS back (I made it disappear yesterday when she wasn’t cleaning her room like I asked and instead was playing her video game) and she was throwing a little fit in front of me. I told her, loudly, “I’m trying to get some work done!” and sent her to Kent so he could deal with her fit. (He loves it when I do that, as you can imagine.)
So even though perfection is nowhere in sight, when you have four kids (and do day care for over 20 years) you do learn a few things here and there. Those of you with more than four kids, I’m sure you’ve learned even more tricks. I hope you’ll share your favorite tips for preserving your mental health as you go down this parenting road. (I’m especially interested in how those of you with really big families stay sane.)
Both of the tips I’ll share came out of a conversation between Ann Marie and I last week regarding her 4 year old daughter, Kate…
Do I Have to Play with My Kids?
My short answer is this: play something with them, but only play what you personally enjoy.
Here’s the long answer…
Ann Marie said Kate begs her to get in the bath with her so they can play Barbies.
I told her, “Wow, there’s no way I’d ever do that, what torture!”
She said in complete shock, “Really?!”
“No way. At bath time my kids get measuring cups, turkey basters and maybe a sibling if there’s one available, but not me. If I’m going to take a bath, it’ll be alone or with a good book. And as far as playing Barbies, that’s what they have friends for. I’d rather be shot in the foot than sit and play Barbies. The rare times I’ve done it to be ‘nice’, they always said I wasn’t ‘playing right’ anyway.”
I remember a similar conversation a few years ago with my friend, Sonia. Her boys always had her down on the floor playing GI Joe. Of course she never ‘played right’ either. I couldn’t believe there were parents out there who could do this without going insane.
One day it came up and when I told her I didn’t do that, she couldn’t believe that this wasn’t some sort of ‘required’ parental duty, even though she hated it.
I told them both: “I love reading books with the kids, playing outside, playing games, watching movies, or taking them to various fun places now and then, so those are the types of things we do together. But pretend play on the floor? No way. I’m happy to invite their little friends over for that, since I know how important pretend play is to their growing brains, but I’m not doing it.”
Both Ann Marie and Sonia had this sound of freedom in their voice when they said, “Wow! I always thought I had to do that with them, but I really can’t stand it!”
So for all you parents out there who need permission not to play that way with your kids, here it is. Now if you do enjoy pretend playing with your kids, great. Maybe it’s board games that make your skin crawl. Whatever it is that you enjoy with your kids, do that. Do something fun with them as often as possible, but don’t suffer through the stuff you hate.
Bedtime Issues
It’s kind of ironic that I was giving Ann Marie bedtime advice recently, when we don’t exactly have blissful bedtimes around here either. It’s a constant work in progress, wouldn’t you all agree? But apparently my advice helped her and Seth get their evenings back, so I’m glad I could help.
She told me that she’s been lying down with Kate every night in order to get her to settle down and go to sleep. I said, “Doesn’t that drive you crazy, and make you resentful toward her, when you know you have stuff you could be doing?!” I told her about when our now 12 year old was a toddler and we went through nighttime torture for months with him. There was nothing that worked to help him fall asleep, and now I know it was because of what we were feeding him!
When he finally got through that horrendous stage, and we’d have all the kids sleeping by 9:00 with a quiet house, we’d look at each other and say, “Wow, so this is what it’s like to have peace in the evenings.”
Here’s What I Suggested
Before bedtime, sit her down for a little chat. She’s 4 and plenty old enough to understand what you’ll be saying to her. They’re so much smarter than we give them credit for. Your conversation can go something like this, and it all has to be in a calm, matter-of-fact voice, like it’s no big deal. Use an upbeat, but clearly non-negotiable tone…
“Kate, you’re 4, so you’re going to start going to bed like a big girl from now on. Mommy isn’t going to lie down with you at bedtime anymore because I’m going to be out here doing my work. Before bedtime we’ll get a snack and a drink of water and go potty, so once you’re in bed you won’t need to get up for anything.
We’ll read a story together and then I’ll tuck you in. You can look at books in your bed if you’d like, but you may not get out of your bed. If you’re quiet, we’ll leave the door open, but if you fuss, Mommy will shut the door because I’ll be working.
Now here’s the deal… (use your excited voice here) If you’re a good girl and stay in your bed, then the next day we’ll get to (insert reward here — go to the park, get ice cream, make a craft, whatever) together! But here’s the thing, (use a matter-of-fact, what-a-bummer voice here), if you decide not to stay in your bed or Mommy ends up having to lie down with you again, that will be a bummer, and we won’t get to (whatever your reward was), and you know what else? Not only will we NOT get to (reward), you also will (insert consequence here, like not get to watch ANY TV the next day or play video games or have a friend over or whatever they love that you can take away). (Insert excited voice here again…)
But I think you’ll make a good choice and make Mommy & Daddy so proud! Because you will love (reward), won’t you?!”
Warning: They will Test You
So that’s basically it, but here are the extra warnings I gave Ann Marie…
1. Plan on them testing you, maybe every night for a month, maybe only one or two nights, but they’ll test you, because that’s what kids do. If you want this to work, you MUST follow through on your rewards and consequences. And THAT will be the hard work for you as a parent. I don’t know about you, but I’m lazy. I don’t LIKE following through with punishment because I get sick of the whining and the fits, but if you don’t follow through, just plan on your kids having you wrapped around their finger forever.
2. When they test you, keep that matter-of-fact voice going and say things like, “Oh bummer, it’s too bad that you made that choice. Oh well, now we can’t (go get ice cream) tomorrow and you (won’t get to watch TV, not even one show), oh well, maybe tomorrow at bedtime you’ll make a better choice.” All day long when they whine to you, repeat that same phrase over and over like a broken record. It will drive them crazy and you’ll enjoy this, trust me!
3. Remember, if you don’t keep a nice calm voice and instead get all emotional or yell, then it makes them feel like you aren’t in control and can’t handle the situation; but if you keep your cool and let them see how their choices can change things one way or the other, for better or for worse, they will come around. (I need to remind myself often of that part about not yelling…)
4. What happens around here is that we’ll get things under control, and slowly we get lazy. Then we’ll realize they’re “playing us” again, so we reign them back in, and become all hard-core on the discipline for a while until they see that they’re not in charge, and then we can level off ’til the whole cycle starts over. If we didn’t get lazy that wouldn’t happen over and over, but we just do.
5. Remember, kids crave the security that discipline gives them. They act like they want to be in charge because testing is what they naturally do, but what they really need is the security of knowing that their parents are in control. Disciplining our kids and teaching them healthy boundaries in life is important for so many reasons. It’s what is necessary for healthy brain connections to be built so they can grow up to be respectful and productive human beings. It also builds the groundwork for learning to respect authority in the future (having a boss, etc.), and lastly, if we can help our kids learn about self-discipline early on, imagine the implications for their future. Or conversely, look at the problems in our world, how many of them stem from a lack of self-discipline? Instead of letting their every desire control them (eating crap vs. eating well, sitting on the couch vs. going for a walk, staying in bed vs. going to work, closing their mouth vs. spouting venom at their spouse, wow, we could go on and on), if they can learn self-control, it will preserve their health, jobs, relationships, and more! Even as adults, for myself anyway, I still need to get better and learn more about self-discipline!
Where I Learned These Tips
I’d have to say that there were 4 main ways that Kent and I developed our parenting arsenal:
1. From our own families – the way our parents raised us and how we watched our siblings raise their kids, these obviously had an impact.
2. My girlfriends have given me great tips through the years as they’ve learned and read things and used trial and error — we need each other!
3. For years I listened to and read all the Dr. James Dobson resources
4. Good ol’ experience. And remember, imperfection only means you’re human, not that you stink as a parent, although I do feel that way often!
Recently I bought this Kevin Leman book, Have a New Kid by Friday
Parenting is much more difficult than I expected. More wonderful and rewarding, too. But wow, kids really do know how to push your buttons if you let them.
More Parenting Advice From Kelly
Click here to read more parenting advice from Kelly the Kitchen Kop.
What Are Your Favorite Parenting Tips and Where Did You Learn Them?
Please share your thoughts in the comments.
Photo credit: scream and shout by mdanys
{ 211 comments… read them below or add one }
I love a good guest blogger! Thanks Kelly. We have had very very good look with the parenting advice at handinhandingparenting.org. It is a little “touchy feely”, especially for my husband, but it is about honest emotional connections that brings out the best in children (and parents!) It also has brought the yelling, bribing, snapping, tantrums down to a manageable level. I was brought up by a sugar sensitive moody yeller and that is my default, but thankfully we are blazing new parenting trails at our house.
You could ask “what do you want your child to do?” and then ask “what do you want your child’s REASON to be for doing so?”.
I would encourage anyone reading this to set aside a few minutes to explore the comments below by Sandrine and others who present an approach that avoids coercion inherent in a punishment/reward approach, sidestepping fear of being judged/blamed/rejected and instead engendering true connection and a way where everyone’s needs are embraced and met. It may sound strange because this approach is not what our society and institutions are generally based on, but it is possible – and quite enjoyable and effective – to tap into this approach for any sort of interaction, relationship, conflict, etc.
I’m really excited for this discussion because it can be applied universally to interactions not just within families but at work, school, organizations, government, anywhere.
I don’t let myself get roped into my son’s pretend play anymore either. I felt guilty about telling him no, but he’s getting used to it. I do like to do puzzles and wrestle on the bed a little. Sometimes we play legos and we always read books. I don’t do all the pretend play (which really just involves me taking order from him on what so-and-so is supposed to say) and it’s such a relief!
LOL! I know! Whenever I play Barbies with her she’s always like, “No, Mommy, don’t do it like that. Do it like this.”
I have the sneaking suspicion that so many kids going to day care actually has something to with parents getting the idea they have to play everything with their kids…and another one I often see: parents who seem to think that it is necessary to do some sort of craft project every day. Day care centers do this because parents want to see something for the money they are paying. But how many of our parents did this stuff? Your kids will learn to amuse themselves MUCH better if you do NOT play their pretend games with them. My folks played with us spontaneously sometimes, usually outdoor stuff or games. NOT pretend play beyond drinking the pretend “tea” preschoolers always bring their parents.
Hahaha yes my daughter loves to play “restaurant”. She feeds all her customers including me, Daddy and all her dolls. It’s really cute. That is one pretend game that I love to play with her.
If you think about it, 100 years ago, parents didn’t have TIME to do crafts and play with kids. They had to work. There were farm chores since most everybody lived on farms back then, and nobody had a dishwasher or a washing machine.
What’s that old saying?
Monday: Wash Day
Tuesday: Ironing Day
Wednesday: Sewing Day
Thursday: Market Day
Friday: Cleaning Day
Saturday: Baking Day
Sunday: Day of Rest
I watched a show once called 1900 House. Great show. It was about a family living in 1900 (it was like Real World or Top Chef or whatever but they were living in 1900 in England). Anyhow the women back then worked like 18 hours a day. No joke!
There was no time for crafts and lollygagging. I’m sure the kids were all working by the time they were 4 or 5.
I don’t feel so bad now that my week has constituted of 18 hour days recently… such is the life of a mother of 4 young girls under 7 years (3 of which are homeschooled), with a contract/shift working husband, a home to manage, making GAPS friendly food from scratch, not to mention the filing and paperwork for our company (I am concentrating on tax stuff at the moment). I am often busy in the kitchen at midnight and really need more sleep, but sometimes you have to *somehow* fit the other things in.
I am so thankful I only have a herb garden to attend to, not a farm to manage as well!
PS My 3 older girls are little “Master Chefs” and they serve us pretend food often, too. I enjoy that simple time of playing. The advantage of having several children in the family – they can keep themselves company while Mummy works.
I think rewarding for going to bed is a dangerous trap to get into. It’s bedtime because it’s bedtime. Rest is what makes us feel good the next day, it grows our bodies and our minds. We shouldn’t learn to do it because we may or may not get our favorite treat the next day. Giving a reward for a basic human function takes the power away from the child (who should be empowered by their own body) and turns it into a power struggle/bargaining relationship with a parent. It’s basically the same reason that I don’t think rewards for potty training are a good idea. Take your kids to the park! But not because they do or do not have a hard time falling asleep.
I think bargaining/rewarding for normal behavior (especially) is a slippery slope.
Talking to a 4y/o about sleeping on their own is fine. But make it a conversation. Like. “what can I do to help you fall asleep on your own?” Kids have amazing insight and ideas sometimes. Maybe a light would help. Maybe there is something in particular they are scared of… a closet door or something. It’s totally honest and fine to explain you need to get work done, but make it a team effort to solve the problem.
JMHO
Playing with barbies, I’m not into either. And I DO agree with playing with your kids with something YOU enjoy but I think it’s also important to engage with them in things that you may not always enjoy, because we expect them to do the same for us.
Now, back to the regularly scheduled food talk! I hope
@Leah
That’s all well and good but talking about it didn’t work for us.
We have been struggling with this for years. She has the light on, has “Monsters Away” (a spice jar with a label on it, made by her Bubbe), has 3 blankies, her books, her dolls, the cat, her sippy cup with water, etc. We’ve done everything we can to make her feel comfortable. Now she says, “I don’t want to be alone. I need you to stay with me.”
This IS working — finally! Thank God!
It’s fine. I meant to say that I’m glad this is working for you
It’s totally not an attack on you. But sometimes something that works to make one thing easier, may set you up for more difficulties in the future.
I’m coming from a different perspective and just want to put it out there.
ha ha *laughing at myself*
one more thing… I think I’m just feeling defensive because of the part of the title “that really work” because there are other ways “that really work” I have done them myself and watched others as well.
And I wanted to say, that leaving the light on was just an example. It has to be something that is meaningful to THAT child for it to be of any use. That’s why you have to talk with them and listen to their ideas. I’m not saying you didn’t do that, I don’t know.
“I don’t want to be alone. I need you to stay with me”
Ouch, my heart just broke a little. I know that every parent has to set their own boundaries, but a 4 year old needing to be with her working parents for cuddles at bed time doesn’t sound too outrageous to me.
Looking to traditional cultures it would be pretty likely that the 4 year old would be in the family bed.
yes! indeed. I wasn’t sure about bringing that up, but it is most certainly “traditional” (and biologically normal) for a young child to want to sleep with another warm, loving body!
Extra snuggles are always good, but when it’s cutting into their much-needed sleep so they can function at school the next day, or if they’re using it as a tool to control you into staying there with them *every* night for an hour, then that’s when you know something needs to change.
Some kids won’t need cajoling to go to sleep. Our daughter loves her bed and falls asleep easily. Our boys, not so much. Sometimes the rewards and/or consequences are necessary to break bad habits and then you work out of those after a while once they’re in the habit of going to sleep on their own.
Kelly
Oh, and about the family bed… Some love it and it works great for their family (we did that with our babies and I wouldn’t have it any other way), but for a variety of reasons it’s not for everyone.
Once in awhile if our kids are scared in the night or whatever, they’ll climb in with us (and I love the snuggles!), but after a while they decide they want their bed again because they aren’t comfortable and none of us get as much sleep!
I start to feel really uneasy when people start talking about -little- kids manipulating their parents. I KNOW kids are smart, but why isn’t it just as legitimate to believe that being with a parent (for an hour at bed) is an actual NEED for *that child*?
This is what I believe: as a parent, you *know* if they truly need you or if they’re “working you”.
If they *need* you every single night for an hour before bed, then something else is going on, in my opinion. Maybe you were gone all evening at a meeting or whatever, then yes, they probably need you, but if you’ve just spent the evening playing, reading, helping with homework, etc., then they really should be able to settle in and go to sleep. You know?
@Leah
If Kate got her way, she would get to stay up until midnight or 1 am every night, reading stories and playing video games.
And if she got her way, she would eat candy and cake for breakfast lunch and dinner.
It’s good to love our children and nurture them but we also need to set limits for their own good.
I have been reading a lot about sleep and melatonin production. We only produce melatonin at night during darkness. We can’t produce it during daylight — so if there is sunlight streaming in the windows in the morning, it’s not the same quality of sleep (and production of melatonin) as if we are sleeping in a dark room. This is why it’s so important for me to shut off the TV and the lights as early as possible and have her in bed (ideally lights out by 7:30 or 8 pm, since it’s light here around 6:45 am) for Kate to ensure that she will get enough quality sleep. I can get by on 8 hours but she needs 10-11.
I totally agree that it’s not good to sleep with light! Totally, completely agree. I try to turn off the lights in the whole house to start that winding down process, around 6 pm.
Philosophically however, I believe (and have experienced) that the harder we try to control kids, the more they will fight. And if we let them make more choices themselves, they will learn to make good choices. I know this is a radical idea and it is not intuitive to most people. And, you really have to let go and let them be tired or not feeling well to let them experience those natural consequences. I don’t believe that she would eat candy for breakfast lunch and dinner for very long. But that’s sort of beside the point, because candy doesn’t have to be an option, but I think having it there is an important part of learning self-regulation, in some respects. I also don’t think that she would stay up until 1 am. *honest curiosity here* have you tried? I don’t suspect it would last very long, especially if you had all the lights/electronics off at sunset. However, that is really not the point. Letting them self-regulate doesn’t mean that they have NO boundaries, everyone has boundaries, but it *is* in conflict with the conventional ideas about discipline (ie, child has to do something because parent says so or XYZ will or will not happen).
There’s a world of difference between the implications of “controlling our children” and setting proper boundaries for them. As an adult and a parent, I set the boundaries for them because I know better than they do what they need. If that sounds alarming to you, then so be it.
I was raised in a large family (7 children) and we were well-behaved children because that’s what was expected from us. Consequently, my siblings and I have also raised well-behaved children because our own parents gave us the tools early on to learn how to self-manage our emotions, and to meet set expectations. My parents didn’t feel the need to be our friends when we were toddlers and school-aged children, and that’s what I see as the biggest challenge facing this generation of parents. Parents today would rather be liked than respected, and I would rather be respected than liked. I can be buddies with my kids when they’re adults and moved out of my house. In the meantime, I will strive to nourish them through proper boundaries and expectations.
@AnnieC
Well said. I think you’re right on about the issue of most parents today wanting to be liked vs. being respected.
You can be a gentle parent, who allows your children to slowly realize what they need, without being concerned about whether or not they like you.
I definitely lean towards what Leah is saying and try to meet my kids’ needs even if it is inconvenient to me. I’m not as insistent about certain things and I would even love it if I could find a way to parent that didn’t involve any external rewards or punishments.
However. I do not care if they like me all the time or not. If I say, “You must be strapped into a carseat in the car,” that is not negotiable. Or “You will not pick up the baby,” also not negotiable. And sometimes they really don’t like it, and they yell at me and say “I don’t like you!” But I stand my ground. I can do this without yelling, without punishing.
There is a middle ground between the type of parenting described in this post and the “I just wanna be your friend” parenting that is not parenting at all. I’m really tired of people equating gentle parenting with “no boundaries” because that is just not true.
@Leah
Just by turning the lights/electronics off at sunset, to some degree, you are controlling your children. They are not in control because you the parent are deciding when the lights go off.
There is nothing wrong with this. It is normal and healthy for parents to decide how things should be done in the household. When the kids are in charge, that’s just crazy-making. I tell my daughter, “When you make money and pay for your own house, then you can do things the way you want.”
And yes, she would stay up until 1 am. She’s done it. Mainly she does it with my husband — because he’s a softie and he lets her get away with it.
As far as the candy, yes she WOULD eat it at every meal. There is a lot of junk food at her playdates and if she could, she would always eat it. She doesn’t understand yet why Lay’s potato chips are bad for her and why Mommy has to bring our own popcorn to the movies.
Lol why is it the men who are always softies! I don’t have children, and I know that it’s not remotely close to being the same, but even with a cat, he’s the one who slips her extra snacks, while I’m the tough disciplinarian
.
Hummm, I’m not really sure how to respond. Of course parents have a lot of “control” over the environment. I think setting up the environment is actually critically important for the type of parenting that I’m talking about. You want to set them up for success, basically. So if you fill the cupboards with lays potato chips and then expect them to eat the liver and onions that you’re making for dinner, you’re not likely so see them making a healthy choice.
Also, you can’t judge what she would eat if left to her own choices by the fact that she eats junk when she is at someone elses house for the day. You would have to let her have free-choice over a somewhat long period of time so she could learn self-control/self-regulation. Right now she is just binging on something that is normally a “forbidden fruit.”
Luckily, with a 4 y/o, you can control the types of choices that she has available. So her snacks can all be healthy choices.
I don’t mean to make it sound like it is easy or simple. It is a struggle every day. One thing that I try to ask myself is if I’m doing something to make it easier in the moment, like, to have an obedient four year old, or if the choice I’m making is raising a child who will grow up to be a more independent, free-thinking, self-reliant, self-regulating adult! Sometimes it can be both, but not always.
When I was a kid, I had a lot of freedom. There weren’t any “rules” in our house, but we had to be kind to each other. There was also no punitive actions taken by adults, or bribery. My sister and I were extremely kind and respectful. We were allowed candy whenever we wanted it but neither of us cared. My sister’s favorite food was broccoli tops and mine was fish. We never ate candy because we knew it was always there if we wanted it. We were both “good” kids and we were allowed freedom that may have sounded to some like “the kids were in charge.” The thing about this style of parenting is that you have to find something that works for everyone, including the parents. Some of it is temperament, for sure, but some of it is that behavior will really change when a child isn’t constantly struggling to find power and control in their lives.
I would probably just agree to stay in the room, quietly praying or thinking, as long as she didn’t try to get out of bed or talk. Of course that’s time out of my day. But one of my dearest memories of my whole childhood is bedtime with my mom. We would say prayers, she’d tell me a story from when she was a little girl, and then she’d often lie quietly in my bed until one of us … usually her, haha … would fall asleep.
Only my dad thought that this was too indulgent, and he wanted my mom to spend time with him (naturally) so that stopped. I honestly wasn’t tired at my bedtime, and I had a lot of trouble falling asleep on my own, so I’d lie awake for hours, sometimes getting out of bed and making mischief around the bedroom! Watch me change my mind later on, but so far I still stay with my toddler till he’s asleep, and I don’t really plan to change that till he’s ready.
@Mamaniq
Some traditional cultures did/do use a family bed but many do not.
I asked my former Guatemalan nanny, my former Russian nanny, my former Honduran housekeeper and my current Slovakian nanny (all were raised in small villages eating traditional food). None of them slept with their kids or used a “family bed”.
did they sleep with their siblings? Did they sleep in their own bed starting at infancy? How old were they? just curious!
Jana says she slept with her brothers and sisters in one room until she was 16. She doesn’t remember how young she was when she started sleeping on her own but she says in Slovakia the babies sleep in cribs. She is going to ask her mother and I’ll reply back.
The other women from villages in Guatemala, Honduras and Russia all told me that babies did not sleep with their mothers past a certain point. I don’t remember the exact age. But they all told me babies slept in cribs.
I think when you’re breastfeeding an infant, it’s a LOT easier to have them in bed with you or at least in a bassinet next to your bed. In fact, I can’t imagine doing it any other way. However, I personally think that at a certain age it’s best for them to be in a crib. My daughter used to sleep 12-13 hours straight when she was a baby and she needed quiet and dark. I think a lot of these moms who are constantly carting their kids around in strollers and car seats and wearing them everywhere are actually keeping them awake!
I read Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child and that book really opened my eyes.
Eh…that depends on the kid.
My second baby ALWAYS fell asleep in his wrap when I wore him and was very comforted by that. He WOULD NOT sleep without me until he was 15 months old. Then he transitioned peacefully and now (at 2.5) has no problem sleeping in his own bed, all night, with no fights at bedtime.
My third baby almost never sleeps in his carriers, or anywhere he is upright or around other people, especially now that he’s past 5 months. He naps completely alone in a crib and is better for it. He does prefer to sleep with me at night, and why not? Cozy and warm.
When he is ready to sleep on his own, he will — he has a bed in our room when I set him for part of the night. Someday he will just stay in it all night.
So, it really, really depends on the kid. They are all different. And I strongly believe that if you meet each individual child’s needs, they will get to that point of sleeping alone with no issues. Both my older kids have and except for rare nights, we do not have bedtime problems. When we say “It is time for bed” or “It is time for nap” they say “Okay” and they go. No threats, no rewards or punishments, no long-drawn-out bedtime, no parents laying in their bed, no trips to our bed at night, etc. It has always been matter-of-fact, this is what is happening, and it has never been an issue.
I agree – it depends on the kid. It also depends on the parent. If sleeping with your kid makes you resentful and passive-aggressive, it is better to let them sleep in their own bed.
Our daughter slept with us from about 2 till just a few months ago (about 2.5 years). It was not good. We both had back problems and had to go to the chiropractor often.
Co-sleeping is not for everyone.
“Co sleeping is not for everyone.” Thanks for pointing that out Cheeseslave! My babies both went into cribs in their own rooms at 9 or 10 months. They would wake up and cry 1 or 2 times a night and I would get up and feed them (I always hear the crying). When they’d sleep with me, it would be more like 4 times a night because we’d wake each other up. Mommy, Daddy AND Babies all slept much better when we slept apart – and I’m sick and tired of people giving me grief for what worked for my family!
Loved that book. My son had sleep problems literally from when he was born and Dr. Weisbluth’s techniques were honestly the ONLY things that worked with him. One of the things that saved my sanity was that it offered a variety of options (family bed, crib, no cry, gradual extinction, etc) rather than judgement if particular methods didn’t work for your family. It has become my go-to baby shower gift.
@Heather Yes I tell every new mom about Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child. It saved our lives and our sanity!
So true, so true!! Thanks for all the reminders! I know this but I forget so easily!
One little tip I picked up from our visit to Michael Scmidts farm this past fall, is to simply light a beewax candle while you are winding them down and getting them into bed. Michael did this for our whole family (although he didn’t stay to tuck us in) and it just struck me as something so special that I had to keep doing with our kids… They love the talking time with mom & dad, they settle down instantly , after they blow out their candle they are completely ready to stay in bed… IT’S MAGIC, I sware!!
(Dipping the candles ourselves with wax from our beekeeper neighbors makes it even more fun!)
@Janeen
Oh, I love love love this idea!!!!
Kate hates candles for some bizarre reason. Whenever I light one, she tries to blow it out. But I will try working on her. I like the idea of making our own special nighttime magic candles…
Maybe make the candles with some of that special “monsters away” dust mixed in! With a little extra boost: lavender and other soothing herbs so that as the candle burns, the soothing smells of calming herbs penetrates.
That is such a beautiful little ritual. I am totally going to try this tonight! Thanks for sharing.
So happy to hear this! Kelly is right on about kids craving discipline and that it makes them much more secure. Being a parent is not easy. Only the good ones question how they are doing and try to improve what they are doing. You are a great mom Ann Marie!
Thank you, Bubbe! xoxoxo
wow, I have been reading Parenting advice and complaints all over recently. I can’t imagine denying my child’s request to spend time playing with me. Maybe I don’t enjoy some activities as much as others, however, it is something that she enjoys, and as long as she is willing to share that experience with me, I will gladly participate. It won’t be long before they are older, and most likely not sharing their experiences with you like they did when they were young. I plan on fully being a part of anything she wants to share with me, because when I am older, I will regret any moments I did not. Of all of the moments in my life, I know I will look back and with certainty, the moments with my child will be the only thing that was truly important. My advice: to strive to always be a greatful parent.
I’d love to read a part two (maybe on her blog) about big kids! My ten year old and I are in a very rough patch. Oh, and one note about playing games you hate with your child. Like Kate, I was an only and my son is an only. Finding a willing play mate is just harder logistically for us singletons. I’m sure you already do this but do find something you enjoy playing together and actively seek a play group or play dates.
P.s. You are a saint for putting up with bath time Barbie as long as you did!
Sahara,
You’re in a rough patch in what way?
Kelly
Yes, Kate has playdates, fun craft and dance classes, and park days all day every day Monday through Friday. She has plenty of friends and fun!
I am a child behavioral consultant. Worked in schools with Special Needs children with challenging behaviors for 18 years. I do lots of home consulting. 1st-diet is important. 2nd-parents should say what they mean and mean what they say. AND they should only SAY it only once. If the child does not respond, do not repeat, but said…I already said for you to…if I must repeat myself then there are consequences. (be specific. I am being vague to simplify). The reason I say this is so important is because in schools and in the job place, teachers, coaches and bosses HATE dealing with kids that are not taught to listen. They do not want to be a broken record, and neither should you. Teachers will not want to work with a child that has not been taught to listen and hasn’t learned the rules of actions=consequences. 3rd-have a bedtime routine and stick to it. If you are not happy with your family’s routine, tweek it over time. They kids are not likely to notice as much that way. The older the kids get, the simplier the bedtime routine should be. 4 years old is the right age to start simplifying bedtime routines. Toddlers still NEED to be cuddled when it is bedtime. Best to end the day with a prayer at bedtime. This really helps children understand your world and soothes them that they will be ok during the night. 4th-do not reward with food or toys, but with activities. 5th-lap time. Kids need twice as much lap time then you can stand to provide. If you cut out cuddle time in the bedtime routine, add it in during another time of day, especially at first. (I tpye while holding my 5 yr old in my lap…lol!) Have fun!!
Amen to that. I see way too much bargaining with small children, which leads them to not taking the adult seriously. And why should they, if clearly the adult cannot even stick to what she originally said?
I wonder what some attachment parenting or non-violent communication parents would contribute? I have been convinced of many dietary problems based upon the facts around the evolution of our bodies and the contrary evolution of industrial food. After considering with much the same logic the evolution of our culture (look 100 years ago, large families, lots of outdoor activity, gramma and grandpa maybe living with grandkids…or farther…klans with mothers attached to their kids but assisting other mothers), I have decided that this method of parenting is not for me. I will not push my childmor exert power of her in my convenience when it is our culture that pulls them from adults/parents very quickly no more than I would feed her convenient food that fits this same industrial culture. I feel that both lead to malourishment of the body, emotions and heart.
Books that have influenced me:
Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline: The 7 Basic Skills for Turning Conflict into Cooperation Becky A. Bailey
Hold onto you Kids Gordon Neufeld, Gabor Mate M.D.
Nonviolent Communication Marshall B. Rosenberg
No Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers/Preschoolers Elizabeth Pantly
Maybe other mom’s would appreciate seeing a few sides
-
Jennifer
I wrote below on Non-Violent Communication below before I had read your post. I wholeheartedly support your conclusions, Jennifer. Here is another resource: http://www.naturalchild.org/
What we do is that many things that are not important are negotiable. For example, what clothes they wear, what snacks they choose (from pre-selected options), whether or not they wear a coat, what games or toys they play with, etc. Many things are up to them and we just leave that alone.
A few things that are related to health and safety are simply not optional. We sit in a carseat in the car. And we go to bed/have quiet time daily. For quiet time we gave our 4-year-old a little table and chair in her room with some books and activities and told her she could choose to sleep or choose to sit at her table, but she needed to be quiet. This works pretty well, because she has some choices, but she does have quiet time.
We are just super matter-of-fact about the non-optional things. “In a car, we need to be safe, so we ALL get strapped in.” They have never protested. We, as parents, ALWAYS wear our seatbelts, and we ALWAYS, consistently, strapped them in, so they cannot imagine a situation in which doing otherwise would be acceptable. No threats, no rewards, just “this is how it’s done.”
Same thing with bedtime. I warn them it’s coming up, and we talk about the need for sleep. Then we walk them to their rooms, have snuggle time, and tuck them in. End of story. They sleep with us for the first several months, until they are ready for a peaceful transition. When they are ready, they go in their own rooms. Bedtime is a happy time — we chase them around, snuggle them, sometimes read to them, and the whole family is involved in the routine all together. They are comforted by this, and we are all in the first room, then we tuck them in one by one and leave them, with lots of hugs and kisses. The older kids each tried to screw around a couple times, but we were firm and we kept putting them back down and telling them good night.
My daughter is 16 and I don’t miss those days at all. Not because I struggled with her particularly, but because I got so tired of people telling me how I did things was wrong. Moms in play groups, neighbors and friends were always criticizing how I did things.
When my daughter was a little over 2, I put a TV in her room. At bedtime the only light on in her room was the TV. She could watch a movie IF she stayed in her room. She understood that if she got out of bed for any reason besides an emergency, that the TV would be gone. Only one time did she test me. She went to bed every night without incident. When I went back to her room 20 minutes later, she would be asleep, the TV would go off and the night light would go on. You don’t need to tell me how bad this is because plenty of people already have. But she got sleep and so did I.
When she went into second grade, I got a letter from her teacher who was quite concerned about my reward system at home. The class had a behavior chart where the teacher gave smiles, stars, or checks for their behavior. At the end of the week, the kids who had the best behavior got the gold star. When my daughter got the gold star, I took her to the dollar store to get a treat. My daughter told the teacher that she would get a treat and the teacher wrote me a letter saying that “paying” a child for doing their work is not a good example; that hard work should be expected, not paid off. I wrote her back and asked if she got paid for her work as a teacher. She never answered me.
Throughout the years, the treats for my daughter were stretched fewer and farther in between. But I saw what those treats did. I would always announce to whoever would feign interest that my daughter was getting a treat because she got a gold star. Later on it was an A on a test, and later an A in a class. She would puff her chest out with such pride.
Now a junior in high school, she works her tail off, not because she wants to go to the dollar store, but because she wants to puff her chest out again. She has a 4.3 GPA and is eyeing Stanford. She doesn’t go to parties because she wants to study. She says she feels proud of herself as she looks into the future and sees herself with her PhD. And I know her chest will be puffed out!!
She still has a TV in her room, BTW, and it has helped with other issues over the years, as well. All I ever had to do was pretend to be unpluggling it and she straightened up right quick. And the kids of those critical moms? Not one of their kids went to college, most are already parents and one is in jail.
Yes, every family has to find what works for them!
Regarding the TV, we have a similar situation with video games. As much as I didn’t want to bring them into the house and still really limit their time on them, I’m glad we gave in on this because as the kids get older there has to be *something* they love that you can take a way when needed!
Wow, Susan! What a great story!
Thank you so much for sharing.
I wrote her back and asked if she got paid for her work as a teacher. She never answered me.
LOVE THAT!!!!!
I have been listening to John Taylor Gatto on the Peace Revolution podcast every night. He was a teacher in the public schools in NY (Teacher of the Year in NY) for a long time and then quit very publicly on the front page of the Wall St. Journal. Now he is one of the most vocal advocates of homeschooling.
He says that kids learn very young how to operate in the world. He says that we let children stay little for too long. He says billionaire Warren Buffet had his first business at 4 years old. (That blew my mind)
He tells another story in the Peace Revolution podcast about billionaire Richard Branson, CEO of Virgin. Branson’s mom wanted him to be independent so she drove him a few hours away from their home and asked him if he could find his way back. (You would not EVER want to do this now — things were much different in England in the 40s/50s) She did it because she wanted him to learn independence and self-reliance. Branson said that nothing in his life was ever hard again after that. And look what he went on to do with his life!
I think so many of us coddle our children and it does them no favors.
Oh and PS: My mom always does that with the grandchildren when the go to visit her. They go back into the guestroom and watch a movie while she and Grampotter watch Chopped on their TV. They always go right down and it’s a comforting ritual for them. Why is TV seen as such a “bad” thing anyway? In my mind it’s just like books or plays. When I was a kid, I used to fall asleep every night to Mystery Theater, an old-time radio show I could get on my AM radio. But that’s a whole ‘nother podcast.
http://peacerevolution.podomatic.com/
This is a great post and I really appreciate it! Can I add a plug for a book that has transformed my parenting as well- it called “Good and Angry” by Scott Turansky & Joanne Miller. I am far from perfect but this book has had more impact on my parenting than any other book than the Bible!
I also highly recommend Reb Bradley’s work on “What I Wish I Knew When My Children Were Young…”
I wholeheartedly agree with the recommendation to be authentic with our children, and to engage in play that resonates. I don’t think it ultimately serves us or our children – or whomever we are in relationship with when we act out of a sense of obligation because we think we should. When there isn’t a true willingness within us, I think resentment arises and we can’t sustain it. So — I love Kelly’s recommendation to play with your children in a way that is truly joyous for you.
Yet, I wholeheartedly disagree with the good/bad paradigm she presents. Good girl/bad girl.
With all do respect to Kelly, whom I adore … I cringed when I read the words she recommended, “If you are a good girl” …
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=177656962329544
I wrote the following on the topic:
Good Boy. Bad Boy.
Instead of asking a child to be “a good girl or a good boy”, which I hear all the time … and which I would not consider to be a doable request, how about eliminating the good/bad polarity all together.
I encourage you to consciously eliminate that from your language. From my perspective, a child is neither good or bad. Rather, they are engaged in behavior that you like or don’t like at any given moment. It is your interpretation of their behavior that you view as “good” or “bad” … that you enjoy or don’t enjoy. So – I recommend, “I don’t like it when you throw your clothes on the floor.” An unarguable statement … a reflection of you rather than a reflection of them. You can then make a request based on your need.
Rather than, “Be a good girl and clean up your mess”.
Observation: “I see 20 pieces of clothing on the floor.”
Feeling: “I feel anxious and frustrated when I see all those clothes.”
Need: “It would meet my needs for support, order and collaboration if the moment you take your clothes off, you put them in the hamper if they are dirty, or back in the drawer/hanger if they are clean”.
Request: “Would you contribute to our family life in this way”?
http://www.selba.org/EngTaster/Social/Communication/ObsFeelNeedRequest.html
I am passionate supporter of Non-Violent Communication – NVC:
I learned about NVC http://www.cnvc.org/ from Lynda Smith Cowan, Dr. Thomas Cowan’s wife. Dr. Cowan is a founding board member of the Weston A. Price Foundation. He talks about NVC in this book, The Fourfold Path to Healing, and in his FourFold Path to Healing conferences. I have been an avid student of NVC since 2004, when I hosted an introduction and subsequent class that Lynda taught to our Weston A. Price Foundation San Francisco Chapter members.
How many of you are familiar?! Here are some resources to start …
http://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/aboutnvc/parenting.htm
Here are books I recommend: http://nonviolentcommunication.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=99&utm_source=nvcsite&utm_medium=web&utm_term=normal&utm_content=left-image&utm_campaign=aboutnvc-parenting
http://seedofpeace.org/?page_id=878
While I am not a parent, I have served as a live-in nanny, a live-out nanny for a number of years caring for children from infancy to adolescents, worked as a Marriage Family Therapy and Art Therapy intern on the pediatric ward of San Francisco General Hospital, served in the same capacity at Sutro Elementary School, worked as a teacher both in the classroom and in private practice, and as an educational therapist for a decade — working with children labeled as learning disabled. I have definitely faced my fair share of “parenting” moments in all those roles for over 20 years. I know from experience that there is an alternative to the punishment “consequences”/rewards model and encourage parents to explore Non-Violent Communication.
Excellent points, Sandrine!
It reminds me of the book that I read recently and got a LOT out of. It’s called How to Talk So Your Children Will Listen and How to Listen So Your Children Will Talk. A fantastic book!
I will take a look at the book! Thanks for the lead …
I read and love this book also! Also really love Scott Noelle http://www.enjoyparenting.com. I get his “Daily Groves” emails, they are refreshing and insightful.
Instead of “good” and “bad”, we emphasize the words cooperative and helpful. Basically in order for things to go smoothly, the house to stay clean, for everyone to be happy it requires everyone’s cooperation and helpfulness, rather than “good” behavior.
Bravo, Olivia! I love that approach!
I mean no offense–this is my opinion, you have been warned
: If you read the hunter/gatherer theory or any good attachment/intuitive parenting book you’ll better understand why your child might not yet be comfortable sleeping alone (regardless of what age society deems as “appropriate” or what work you want to get done–and believe me, I’ve been there). Rewards and, sorry but yuck–telling them you will be “proud” of them for doing what you ask to get a reward, does not in my opinion, in the long run, address the growing self-center that years for internal organization. What is more, it further teaches them to disengage from their inner directive to please (get a desired effect) from another…This results in the many tales of those who lived their lives for others and bend over backward to please someone besides themselves; not the best route to a fulfilling, productive life. I am not suggesting a child who experiences this kind of parenting style will be disengaged or miserable, I am, however, suggesting that there is a kinder, more intuitive and child-lead developmental way. And, to be clear, this does not sacrifice “boundaries” or “discipline”, that comes easily when the child feels safe and a child feels safe when he/she is internally organized. Internal organization comes from having each stage (and it is individual to the child, so no amount of children necessarily makes any trick work or not work) honored. Helping your child identify what he/she needs to feel comfortable alone is a good step; soothing music, feel good books and non-stimulating bedtime snack like chamomile tea help. And when, during anytime of the day, you feel it a good time, ask your child about sleeping, talk about the experience, what she/he wants, fears, enjoys..plant the seed of how nice it can be to be in one’s own bed or sleep on one’s own, how it would help you so you can be a better, more attentive mommy the next day if you can get some work done the night before. Children do understand far more than we give them credit for–they understand the game of manipulation (and they learn it from us) or, if we allow them the opportunity, the way of compassion and cooperation. Make sure your child’s sleep space is conducive to sleeping alone, big enough for you to read a book and rest until she drifts to sleep if needed…I have done this with two children and it’s yielded different results (the older has a queen bed so it made the transition easier from family bed to her bed). Still, both children feel settled and enjoy sleeping and I know there is an understanding of what the overall objective is, even if we don’t always reach it.
Finally, get clear about your true intentions…If the extra work to really honor and work with your child to get into a sleep pattern that best accommodates the entire family seems exhausting, acknowledge this to yourself. Then see if you can soothe yourself regarding the effort it takes to truly meet your child where he/she is with the respect the child yearns for and an eye on the long run.
That’s my two cents. Not all parenting styles are a match to every parent. I personally don’t do much TV at all, my kids don’t watch movies (my older one a select few), we wouldn’t have a Nintendo around here, no personal computers, they are lucky if I’m multi-tasking enough to ignore (which is more often than I like to admit) the iphone games they like to play but it’s my phone and therefor access is limited. That said, I am offering this because it is very different–philosophically-to what is being espoused above and feel it merits a voice.
” … there is a kinder, more intuitive and child-lead developmental way. And, to be clear, this does not sacrifice “boundaries” or “discipline”, that comes easily when the child feels safe and a child feels safe when he/she is internally organized.” Amen, amen, amen, Laura! I am so appreciative of you expressing your voice. Parents may not realize there is an alternative approach to the reward and punishment paradigm. Just like so many don’t realize there is an alternative approach to factory farmed beef from cattle kept in confinement.
I believe wholeheartedly in the way of compassion and cooperation you speak of, that I found so eloquent.
YES! And if anyone is interested in learning more about these non-coercive, intuitive discipline methods, I’d recommend anything by Alfie Cohen (Unconditional Parenting), Lawrence Cohen (Playful Parenting), Jane Neilson (Positive Discipline), Jean Liedloff (The Continuum Concept) and especially anything put out by Love and Logic.
Thank you, Dawn – I will post those book recommendations on the Nourishing The Whole Child page I created! https://www.facebook.com/nourishingthewholechild
Sorry, it’s Alfie Kohn, not Cohen. Also Pam Leo (Connection Parenting) is outstanding too. Her article out this week: “The level of cooperation parents get from their children is usually equal to the level of connection children feel with their parents. It takes the same amount of time and attention to meet children’s emotional needs as it does to deal with behaviors caused by their unmet emotional needs. Either way we spend the time.”
The more I learn from and about my child, the more I realize that healthy, sustainable family life is almost totally incompatible with the stressful demands of modern civilization. Proper attention to once sphere almost always leads to abysmal neglect of the other. We all need a village…
That is what I think about folks who complain that it takes too much time or money to create nutrient dense foods – I believe that it is worth the investment up front because one will pay in time and money at some point at the doctor’s office!
Thank you, Sandrine…:)
Thank you Laurie!
Thanks for saying this. Took the words right out of my mouth. From an evolutionary standpoint, it is only in very recent times that kids were remotely safe enough to sleep alone and not get dragged away by a tiger or something. Biology has not caught up with civilization however, and it is normal for children to feel fear at sleeping alone on the most basic, limbic, self-preservation level, even if they intellectually understand that mommy is just in the next room. So, evolutionarily speaking, my almost 4 year old NEEDS me to snuggle her to sleep. If she’s occasionally having trouble sleeping and I need to get things done, I simply set up a little, cozy sleeping spot for her on the couch or floor near me, with the caveat that it’s grown-up time; I am working and she must try to sleep. This works out very well for all of us.
@Laurie Cohen Peters
Yes, to each his own!
I am personally NOT a fan of attachment parenting.
We looked into Waldorf preschool for Kate but ultimately rejected it because they were so anti-TV, games and computers. I think the internet is one of the greatest inventions of all time and I think keeping our kids away from all the knowledge and communication that is happening online does them a great disservice. (But of course, look at what I do for a living.)
I think we all have to find ways to parent that fit with our own values and lifestyles.
I concur that parent’s need to make choices based on their values and most of us pick and choose — just as within the Weston A. Price Foundation some will follow some recommendations and not others. Just as a point of clarification ..
While some consider them compatible, others do not – Waldorf education and attachment parenting are not necessarily one and the same: http://theparentingpassageway.com/2009/01/22/waldorf-and-attachment-parenting-the-mini-rant/
http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1262883/how-compatible-is-waldorf-with-attachment-parenting
@Sandrine
Yes I know they are not the same. I was just picking 2 separate examples of things that I know a lot of WAPFers are into but they did not work for us.
I can’t do No Poo either.
This is so true, Sandrine. I actually transitioned my child at Waldorf Preschool and I was one of only two parents who did this along with family bed, long term breast feeding, listening to my kid’s cues, etc..for me attachment parenting was really intuitive parenting and changes along with the child as he/she grows…On that first day of Waldorf, I was pretty shocked to learn no other parents were transitioning (having come from the bathroom, hair fluffed, ready to meet fellow parents and finding none left just minutes after the hand bell was rung on the first day! LOL) but then, when I explained my reasoning, they asked me if I wanted to implement a transitioning program.
For me, it was good to have teachers that didn’t “drink the cool-aid” as all of Waldorf principles, like most all things in life, did not resonate for me. Yet the basics; organic foods, honoring the whole child, inspiring creative, conceptual thought, appreciation, etc did. In the end, my child was wanting more than Waldorf so we moved on though I may revisit it. I’ve found an amazing preschool for my younger daughter.
ps oops not meaning I was the only parent to practice this style parenting but one of two to transition my kid at preschool…I should add, I also adore the low/no stimuli at waldorf and it inspired me when I would get lazy. I did do a yoga video and ballet video for my oldest at the 3 year preschool mark and then slowly added a few more once in a while…for what it’s worth, connected or not, she has very little to no desire for TV these days. Also, should say “attachment parenting is…” (did not mean past tense…such is multi-tasking
)
@AnnMarie: There is a school in LA that has a great philosophy about early exposure to media and computers….They express how rapidly changing technology is and that when a child has his/her foundation in sensory/tactile/creative learning they can then integrate technological learning with a self-possessed foundation for critical thinking in-tact that is not based on this kind of external input. By then, new programs and apps will be introduced and they can pick up–say around 8 years or so… It should be noted that the percentage of children from parents in Silicon Valley that are being sent to schools like Waldorf is rising rapidly. That said, of course there is no one size fits all and I completely support making the best choices for you and your family.
My oldest went to waldorf preschool and kindergarten and I still see the gems from that experience in her play to this day…She has a rich inner-life (always has but I believe Waldorf gave her additional tools to explore that life) and is an extremely avid reader who really comprehends concepts in a way I don’t see in many of her peers. As well, she is very self-organized. Is this nature/nurture/a combination? I believe many factors play a role, Waldorf being one of the positives. However, again, this jibes with my values. I’ll tell you something interesting regarding TV and young ones. I learned a valuable lesson when my oldest was about 4 years old. We were in a hotel in Puerto Rico and my husband was working outside the hotel and I got a business call that required an hour with the computer. I was panicked as I had no sitter and my 4 year-old in a hotel with little toy options. I turned on the TV (a very rare treat at this point) and there was the Disney Mermaid movie–she had never seen Disney movies yet had a thing for princesses and the Mermaid was one of them. Within two minutes she asked me to turn off the TV. I asked her why and she said the characters were being mean to each other and acted inappropriately and this made her feel bad. I knew then that she had the foundation to self-police and it showed me that full abstinence at some point is not necessarily needed if there is an awareness of the messages and behaviors being offered that one’s inner-guidance knows innately (before it’s numbed out by external input) doesn’t feel good. Personally, for me, I have been editing children’s books while reading them and shocked at what passes as acceptable kid’s entertainment on TV and movies. Then again, I was a producer for the Olsen Twins when they were 7-9 and I had to hire writers for their home movie scripts and I never thought about whether the writer had a background in child development or even had kids, all I cared about was whether they could tell a story–I was young; as if these little ones need the dramatic arc and have the bandwidth/attention to get to the resolve that makes all the nasty behavior and conflict “worth it” for the “lesson”…this just seems unnecessary to me. Again, this is me.
Sandrine, I know what you’re saying, and if they didn’t settle down on their own, the next day I’d never say, “Oh, you’re a bad boy” or anything like that! I’d say in a matter-of-fact voice, “It’s a bummer that you made that choice, oh well, maybe tonight you’ll stay in your bed so we can…”
I am not in favor, fundamentally, of the reward and punishment approach you recommend. It isn’t just a matter of the words being used – it is the underlying philosophy about the need to control our children that I take issue with. I would love you to explore non-violent communication as an alternative: http://www.naturalchild.org/articles/gentle_guidance.html I learned about it first through the San Francisco chapter of the Weston A. Price Foundation and consider it very much akin to all that I’ve learned about pasture raised farming as opposed to factory farming.
What a great list of articles. I do love naturalchild.org! Thanks so much!
I donated to them last year! They’ve proven to be an invaluable resource!
Sandrine-
I am on point with your philosophy, but having been both a teacher in Chicago Public Schools for some time { and now a SAHM with a child that has autism}, I have loosened a bit on the reward/punishment continuum.
Why? My son is only motivated by food.
Not by gentle talking or nuances. He sees his word as causes and effect. Black and white.
I’ve tried the child-led pottying approach for 2.5 years. Now I have a 4 year old in diapers.
The only thing that works?
A reward.
A small gluten-free, dye-free candy.
In all things parenting, sometimes we have to go with what works.
Perhaps, in my pre-autism days, I would have agreed whole-heartedly with the pedagogical and ideological implications.
But in some kids.
The world is good and bad.
Black and white.
Loved all your links!!! Great resources!!
Interesting thoughts, Sandrine. I think you bring up a great point about carefully choosing language used to describe behavior regarding the “good/bad” labels. The polarity of it, as you mentioned, could very well be more harmful than helpful. I think once children are at a place, developmentally, to cognitively recognize more accurate and case-specific, descriptive labels to attach to their behavior and actions, they should be used. I also agree that it’s important to label the behavior rather than the child himself.
However, I find that I don’t agree with the idea of making a corrective statement to the child with regard to their behavior being something that you personally “like or don’t like at any given moment.” To me, that’s sending the wrong message. While a kid’s clothes strewn all over the floor may bug you and not someone else, that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a socially inappropriate thing to do, in and of itself. As are many behaviors.
How would you handle, say, the child urinating on the floor instead of in the toilet? To me, that’s a concrete, “We only go potty in the toilet. It is not okay to potty on the floor.” Not a, “I don’t like it when you potty on the floor.” I think “I statements” have their place (such as in teaching how words and actions can hurt others), just not in providing basic demands of socially appropriate behavior to be met by the child.
Though, I do see the value in the observation/feelings/need/request paradigm as a means to further explain the “why” of why we only go potty in the toilet, a la “I see potty on the floor. It makes me feel frustrated to see potty on the floor, because I worked very hard to keep our floors clean and safe. If the potty goes inside the toilet, it helps me to keep the floors clean. Would you help me keep the floors safe and clean by going potty in the toilet?” However, I don’t think it’s appropriate to form that last bit into a request. I believe as a parent, you have the right to demand — not request — respect from your children. Just as they have a right to demand respect from their peers, and from others throughout their lives. I would end that instead with “This is why we do not potty on the floor, but only in the toilet, to keep the floors clean and safe.”
I’m also not a parent, but an ex-behavioral interventionist and Applied Behavior Analysis specialist. And I was happy to see some parenting talk on the food blogs this morning! I also agree with a lot of Kelly’s advice. Nicely done!
From my perspective – what is appropriate in one society or community can be considered inappropriate in another society or community. I was born in France, my mother in Morocco, my husband in Jordan and each culture has it’s own ideas about what is “appropriate”. I lived in Israel for several years and know first had that what is appropriate in one neighborhood is not in another a few minutes away! Since what is appropriate is a matter of interpretation, and therefore arguable — I stay clear of “appropriate” and “inappropriate” as statements of fact. What you think and feel is unarguable. Nonviolent Communication is a tool for conflict resolution. The framework is not based on good/bad, right/bad, appropriate/inappropriate, them/us which often leads to a sense of disconnection. http://www.cnvc.org/ NVC is based on universal needs and empathy for each other’s needs.
http://youtu.be/IQO7h9MNCqI – NVC and Parenting
http://youtu.be/xjFbsvONNs8 – Demands
Re: Demands: Dr. Marshall Rosenberg cautions that “If our objective is only to change people and their behavior or to get our way, then NVC is not an appropriate tool. The process is designed for those of us who would like others to change and respond, but only if they choose to do so willingly and compassionately.” NVC is meant to create relationships based on honesty and empathy, not judgment and coercion.
From NVC literature:
“Requests Versus Demands. A request is very different from a demand, but the two are often confused. The difference is that a request is voluntary, without threats. Demands force the other person to submit or rebel, which stops communication. A subtle form of demand occurs if the person blames, judges, or lays a guilt trip if the request is not complied with.
For example, “You had better clean up your room” is a veiled threat and is effectively a demand because it implies negative consequences if one does not go along. It is only a request if the one making the request can accept either a yes or no answer. If, when asked to clean up, the child says “no” and the parent says “You never do what I tell you!”, then it was a demand.
It was a request if the parent can answer, “I see that you prefer to play rather than clean up right now. I am disappointed because I was hoping you would want to cooperate. Would you be willing to do it after you play?” The goal is an honest, empathy-based relationship, not just compliance!
Words that indicate a subtle demand. The words should, ought, must, or have to are often demands. For example, a parent might say, “The room should be cleaned up”. This is a subtle demand, rather than a request.
A reflective request. An excellent type of request is to ask for reflection. This is especially helpful if one is not sure one was heard and understood. For example, one could say “Would you tell me what you heard me say?” This is a request for empathy and for clarification only. It is not to be confused with sarcasm, as in screaming at the other, “Did you hear me?”
http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/inbal_kashtan2.html – when a child says “no”.
http://www.naturalchild.org/articles/gentle_guidance.html
I really recommend these books: http://nonviolentcommunication.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=99&utm_source=nvcsite&utm_medium=web&utm_term=normal&utm_content=left-image&utm_campaign=aboutnvc-parenting
NVC is not merely a theoretical approach – it can be a very effective way to parent, to communicate and to relate with children and adults … especially when children urinate on the floor!
Maybe this works for some families, and that’s their choice, but this is *not* how we parent:
“I see that you prefer to play rather than clean up right now. I am disappointed because I was hoping you would want to cooperate. Would you be willing to do it after you play?”
We don’t tip-toe around our kids. If they tell us they wanted to finish one more thing or whatever, then of course we’ll listen and be flexible when needed, but generally we don’t ask if they’re “willing” to cooperate.
Also, I find all this fuss over the fact that we use rewards/consequences pretty judgmental, as if there’s only *one* right way to parent.
Kelly
I concur, Kelly. There is no question that there are several of us who have judged the approach you outlined in your post to be one we don’t support. Just like you have judged it to be one that resonates with you. I think we make judgements based on our values, our experience, how we were raised … our spiritual beliefs. As a nanny, former teacher and educational therapist, I often bypassed caring about whether or not the child I was interacting with was willing to cooperate, or do as they were told … and I have come to believe that it is ultimately corrosive to our relationships. I don’t believe there is only one right way to parent however, I propose that while one may be able to coerce, manipulate, bribe or otherwise force children to behave the way we want them to, that it may very well not serve them or us. For me, it is not ultimately nourishing for anyone involved.
When I was introduced to NVC within the San Francisco Chapter of the Weston A. Price Foundation, I immediately resonated with the foundational premise, just as I did with the book Nourishing Traditions. For others, it doesn’t resonate, and for others still, a seed was planted that may take some time before it comes to fruition.
I see this discussion as being about principles not personalities – about ideas and not individuals so, I still value our connection as much as I did before I disagreed with the approach you outlined in your post. I have concluded or judged the approach as one that is not reflective to my values in regard to human relationships. At the very same time, I still hold a clear sense of the warmth, care and tender heart I have experienced from you on many occasions. I deeply appreciate your vulnerability and authenticity in this post and in many other’s that I have read. I simply don’t agree with your recommendations on this one and hoped to offer an alternative for folks whom may be seeking one.
I love these ideas (though I don’t have kids yet). I really think balance is important. My parents were super strict about staying in my own bed and would never have laid down with me. That part was fine, and I learned to go to sleep on my own. However, if I was terrified in the middle of the night (i.e., during a really bad thunderstorm, etc), I was never allowed into their bed, and I think that level of strictness can create issues. I have major fear issues still as an adult because I never felt protected by my parents (because of other situations, too, but bedtime is one example). To this day thunderstorms incite extreme terror in my mind – I never learned to soothe myself. Kids need love AND discipline/structure, and its the balance that creates healthiness. Lack of either can harm a child, and oftentimes today the discipline part is slacked on.
Oh, and I agree that bedtime prayer is helpful, too. Really soothing.
It depends upon what you mean about “discipline.” In my mind, discipline means to teach. And when you say that there is no discipline these days, I think that the problem is that there is no “teaching.” Parents don’t know how to practice what they preach or to be consistent, and I think that if you let kids do whatever they want without any kind of guidance or connection, then trouble happens. You have to build the connection between parent and child and respect them. My three year old will help me if I ask her to because I offer to help her. It’s not a chore, it’s something that we try to model in front of her and so far, she is responsive. It is a time consuming process, but I don’t have to punish her in order to have her help me. And I also allow her to say “no.” Peaceful parenting is about respecting everyone’s wishes and trying as best as possible to meet everyone’s needs. I am hopeful that if I am respectful of her now that she will feel respected and be willing to listen to what I have to say. The only thing I got out of punishment when I was a kid was that I had to do what I was told. I wasn’t respected and I was constantly trying to win my parents’ approval and praise. I don’t want my kids to ever feel that way.
I was quite touched with what you shared, Julie!
Great post, Kelly & Ann Marie, with excellent parenting advice from the trenches. Count me as another of the mom’s who loves my son dearly, but still, I’ve *never* been his playmate. I like the Leman book, too. I jokingly say I “did my best parenting before I had my own family”, because like so many others, I have caught myself doing, saying, allowing, not allowing, and so on, the very things I swore I would never, always, tolerate, not tolerate, etc., with my own kids.
Still, I have a few general principles that I’ve picked up over the years from observation of my own childhood, while babysitting, from being an aunt & having friends who had kids long before I started my own family, but they are sometimes the hardest to maintain: be consistent and *never* issue a threat/punishment/consequence (whatever you want to call it), that you aren’t willing to carry out. Kids are masters of determining if you are as good as your word, and they will test, test, test.
And the one thing my mother repeated often, probably the most important thing that I hated hearing when I was a kid, is that “life isn’t fair”. Kids will really work parents up one side and down the other if parents constantly strive to create a perfectly “fair” life for their kids – you know, exact same amount of goodies, down to the last crumb, exact same opportunities, and so on. And making everything fair doesn’t prepare kids for real life, which is what childhood is supposed to do, albeit in a safer, somewhat softened, & supportive environment.
An aspect I’d add is that when you have just one child, the family dynamic is very different than it is in families with more kids, especially those with 3 or more kids. First, there’s just no way parents with 3 or more kids can possibly cater to kids in the same way that parents of one or even two kids can (or sometimes impossibly try to). Second, when I ask my friends with 3 or more kids how they get their kids to be so compliant about various behaviors or things like doing their chores without constant reminders, they tell me the kids often “police” or keeps tabs on each other, so the parents don’t have to as much. Siblings are generally at least a little competitive, and they also don’t want to see their siblings getting away with doing less than their share. And third, only children, even if they have lots of contact with peers, don’t have the continual conflict resolution opportunities the rest of the time at home that they’d have with siblings, so it’s often one parent who “becomes the sibling”. And parents too often unwittingly take on the role that a sibling would.
A while back I noticed this last issue had developed with my 13 yo son. After talking to a neighbor about his relationship as an only child with his mother, I realize that too often my son and I lapsed into a younger brother-older sister routine of speech and behavior, and it was causing problems in our relationship. I *am* an older sister/oldest child (sisters 2 & 5 years younger), and if I didn’t think carefully about my responses to him, would respond like I did with my younger sisters, instead of as his mother. And he was doing and saying exactly the same stuff that my younger sisters would do with me, so until I recognized it and change my behavior and speech with him, for a while it felt like I was reliving my teen years with my younger sisters – not a time I’d ever wanted to relive.
Another issue I’ve noticed is that it takes continual effort to make sure that only children don’t see the family as an equilateral triangle – with more children in a family, I think the division between the parents as marriage partners, separate from the children and the division between parent-child is more obvious and naturally drawn for children. Multiples simply don’t expect to go out with parents on dates, to adult parties, etc., but singles sometimes do, if the family operates as a threesome most of the time.
Wow! 9pm is real late!
My children are grown with their own now, however they were in the bath at 6pm, having had their supper, then book, then lights off at 7pm.
No problem!
My son who lives in France with his children have a different system. They stay up really late, even with having to be at school next morning at 8:20am. When their French grand-mother asked if my son was teary at bedtimes? I started to think back, however before I could answer, my old Nanny sitting next to me said – never – because he always went to bed before he became too tired! Can it really be this simple? Well it worked like a treat for many of us. And I was never so exhausted as I see so many Mum’s now.
Now this late bedtime, is not just in France – as my great friend who goes to baby-sit for her son’s daughters tell me! She’s usually so exhausted by the end of the evening, she leaves her supper and settles for a stiff whisky in front the fire with the dog!
As well we both always thought it was important to maintain some romance with some one-and-one time with the Hubbie.
Just a thought from a couple of grandmothers who did things quite differently.
I am with you, Kaye – I am of the opinion that children go to sleep beyond the time they need to and as a result there is a fair amount of bed-time unrest.
I do agree sleep and food quality are so key!
@Kaye
What time did they get up in the morning?
I like my alone time in the morning — it’s when I get a lot of work done — so for me, if I put my daughter to bed at 7 and she was up by 5 or 6 am, I wouldn’t like that. My husband likes to sleep late as well, and she’s fond of waking him up. So he wouldn’t like it either.
I do think she needs to go to bed EARLIER though and I am working toward that. We’ve gone from 10-11 to now 9-9:30 and it is my goal to get her in bed/lights out by 8-8:30.
The fact that she always needed me to lie down with her is why she started going to bed later and later. Now that I can put her in bed and then read or relax or get some work done, this works much better for me and I CAN get her to bed earlier.
And I completely agree that sleep begets sleep. I think most children today are sleep-deprived and can’t sleep because they are so overtired.
I have heard some parents say that their children sleep longer if they go to bed earlier. I am not sure if this is true in all cases but it makes sense to me–if you are up late, you trigger cortisol to be released in turn making for nightwaking or very early rising and a tired child who gets into the habit of wanting to do it all over again tomorrow. It is worth a try anyway. Have your read the book The 7 O’Clock Bedtime by Inda Schaenen and Judith A. Owens? I really enjoyed it and recommend it to my kindergarten parents who want help with sleeping routines.
@Anisa It REALLY worked for me when Kate was younger. When she was just 3 months old I read Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child and after I read that book, she started sleeping 12-13 hours per night like clockwork. It was a beautiful thing.
I think I need to get another copy of that book and read about what he says for older children.
I haven’t read 7 O’Clock Bedtime. I will check it out — thank you so much!
Normal infant sleep is not 12-13 hours at a stretch, a full night for a baby is 5 hours. Night wakings help prevent SIDS and they need the nutrition from night nursing for healthy growth. A baby sleeping this long at night will also tank a mom’s milk supply. Please don’t prepetuate the myth that babies should sleep 12 hours staight at night. I don’t sleep like that, I don’t know anyone who has sleep habits like that.
@Megan It depends on the age of the baby. Newborns of course need night nursing but older babies do not.
http://www.babycenter.com/400_can-a-baby-sleep-too-much_1575353_449.bc
I believe SIDS is primarily caused by vaccines.
Not nursing at night won’t tank mom’s milk supply. That is a myth. Moms can nurse just a few times a day and still have more than enough milk.
I agree, Ann Marie. There are several studies I have read (Pharma do their best to bury them) showing that SIDS and vaccinations are directly related. It is not a coincidence that most babies whom die of SIDS do so within 7 – 10 days of their 2, 4 or 6 month immunisation.
Oh, and all 4 of my daughters slept 8-9 hrs from about 9 weeks of age. I had to wean my youngest daughter at 12 months so my husband and I could go away for a week for our 10th wedding anniversary, so my milk supply was not as all affected by her “sleeping through” by 2-3 months of age.
It’s not a “myth”, it’s just not universally true. I DO know moms whose supply is severely affected if they don’t nurse every few hours. And I read a blog by a woman who exclusively pumped and got the whole day’s milk in one pumping session! We’re all different. If you have a small storage capacity and your baby has a big appetite, 12 hours without nursing may be too long. When my son was losing weight at four months (a very scary time for us) I gave up on my previous efforts to get him to sleep through the night and planned on one nursing session per night. He’s gone back and forth between sleeping through the night and waking one or two times, and it seems to be based on his own needs rather than anything I’m doing.
I have no idea if a 4-year-old could sleep 12 hours a night. I know I didn’t. My parents put me to bed at 8:00 and I would lie awake till 10, and then get up at six or seven. So maybe it looked like I was sleeping a lot, but really I couldn’t make myself sleep more than eight or nine hours.
I am sorry but both my 7 year old twins and my 4 year old, slept all night for 12-13 hours by 16 weeks of age. For the most part, they all still do. I know plenty of children that do. They NEED that much sleep.
Oh! I should point out that you should ignore her section on meal ideas. She gives suggestions for supper ideas and I just skip this section. Otherwise, I found it to be a helpful read.
Speaking of books… I can’t believe that I forgot to mention this one in any of my comments on this entry of yours and Kelly’s about parenting ideas. Hands down my favourite book on parenting would be Simplicity Parenting by Kim John Payne. He is an amazing speaker and the book is so straightforward and easy to read. I can’t recommend this one enough. I am sure it is available on Amazon
@Kaye OK I changed my mind. Just read a post on Facebook (a thread about this post) and someone said there’s magic in putting them to bed around 7 — something about the liver. I am going to work backwards and start getting her down earlier.
I guess I can just have my quiet time at night. I’m OK with that!
My 7 year old twins and my 4 year old are almost always in bed by 7. When its winter, sometimes they are in bed by 6:45. The sun sets so early in the winter and it tells their little bodies that its time! I, too, read Healthy Sleep, Happy Child. I recommend it to everyone!
As a current kindergarten teacher who has spent my previous fifteen years being a private nanny in an a lot of different homes, I will add my two cents worth here. I am right with Kelly when she says that she stays out of her children’s pretend play. As a teacher, I feel that this is their world and they need to develop their own capacities to create and order this world in their own way (just like we do as adults) with themselves and with their peers. What they are doing when they pretend is developing their own imaginative pictures–this is the capacity that will later allow them to visualize a story, or do mental math in their heads, or solve a mechanical or even a social problem. We can’t create a better world if we can’t imagine something different than what currently exists. I have noticed that if we involve ourselves too much in their imaginary play, many children will try to manipulate, control or try to please adults in their play (“Mommy, you aren’t playing that right!” or “it’s not fair! You aren’t doing that right!”). Children need time to play their own games with themselves and their peers. In no way am I saying that I think we shouldn’t spend time with our children but time spent should be something you both love and enjoy–children will know if it isn’t and feel dissatisfied and hang on you emotionally as a consequence–better to be honest with them. As a teacher, I set myself up during playtime with some crafting or physical adult oriented work (not computer work as this does not leave me free to be present with the children which is what they really want) that I enjoy. We have a kitchen in my classroom and I make use of this space to keep myself busy too with activity that I love. The happier I am in my work, the more peaceful the play time (usually). Sometimes children come over from their play and want to sit close and watch me work or they want to try what I am doing. I try to make it possible for them to try it or find some way for them to participate or assist me. Often they will just stay for a minute or two and then go off and play–like they just needed a bit of love and to check in and then off they go again. I have noticed that when I make myself available that way, the play is richer and so much more productive and peaceful. I think that is what children really want, is for us to be present with them and build a relationship with them. It is not really about things that we do, but who we are that matters most.
Loved reading about your approach, Anisa! “We can’t create a better world if we can’t imagine something different than what currently exists.” Amen.
It seems to me that that is what so many of us are aiming for with the real food movement–to create a new social, political, and environmental structure for us to live and create our lives in so it makes sense to me that I would encourage building these imaginative capacities in the children in my care so that they can have the abilities to do this when their turn comes to take responsibility.
I agree.
I think adults SHOULD stay out of pretend play.
Parents, without question, should be reading and reading aloud each night and day and at breakfast.
Check out Jim Trelease’s THE READ ALOUD HANDBOOK. I recommended it to all parents of students I taught, and often buy it for new moms and dads.
My issue is working with my son who has autism. He is quite resistant to any fine motor skill activity and has *no* pretend play. I try modeling the pretend play for him. I try approaching fine motor skill builiding after sensory gross motor play, but still no luck.
I wish my parenting dilemmas were as simple as what language I used.
I kid.
Sort of.
Hahahaha!!!!!!…this made me pee in my pants holy cow i just confirmed no muscle strength down there!!!……i go through this crap all the time!, we play musical beds and sofa around this house, everybody sleeps anywhere sometimes i wake up in my daughters bed to find out she sneaked into my my super extra big king size bed where my husband sleeps so cozy arrggh!!! my 5 year old son will fall asleep at the sofa but will also wake up in the middle of the night to sleep with whoever he feels like that night. The only pretend game i play with my kids is me being them and them being me so that they can see how they are to me, its really fun to see how they react to me whining and grabbing things and making a mess and etc you know all the stuff they drive you crazy with. hahahahahahaha this post was PERFECT!!!!!!
LOL Ivette!
Yes my sister told me a long time ago, before I had kids, that every since they had their two girls it’s been “musical beds” in their house. Their philosophy is whatever works.
I do think you have to just do the best you can to get through it!
Someone just posted this on my FB wall and it cracked me up:
http://www.facebook.com/KellytheKitchenKop/posts/256108521128683
After parenting 2 boys, 1 girl over 21 years,
I came across materials written by Fred & Jodie Lybrand.
Their heart for parenting resonated with me more than anything I had ever heard.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?index=books&linkCode=qs&keywords=0965249700
Also, the best tool parents have in their arsenal is the habit of observation.
Look for examples of well-adjusted kids and unfrazzled parents.
Get to know them and glean glean glean.
Always be willing to change the tack with your kids.
Be willing to apologize when you are wrong.
Do your best to keep them from influences that will make your job impossible
and full of conflict.
{{* *}}
Look for examples of well-adjusted kids and unfrazzled parents.
Love this idea!
THis is one reason I never liked the idea of Attachment Parenting. All the AP moms I know are exhausted and never get any sleep.
I love these tips, and I love that you were open to input, Ann Marie! People can be so prickly about their parenting choices (ahem, see comments)! Being willing to listen to a mother with a little more experience is a sign of real wisdom.
And I think we all love our kids, which is the most important parenting tool of all. Even if we don’t agree on the “how”, we’re doing our best.
Aww, thanks Kira! :-* I appreciate you!
Yes, I do try to put myself out there and I get shot down a lot because of it. Someone on Facebook just called me “selfish” as Kate is only 4. Someone else on FB told me the other day that the reason I can’t get rid of my fat belly is because I won’t give up grains.
Everyone’s a critic, I guess.
I am with Kira. I think we all need encouragement. I will second that you do a wonderful job of putting yourself out there.
Each person’s circumstance is so unique and while it can be challenging to stay encouraging and positive about others’ when we feel we have the answer, I think it is so important!
If is makes you feel any better, I too am struggling with extra weight and hormone problems after cutting out grains for almost a year. I too am working on some balance back.
@Anisa
Thank you!
I truly believe that just cutting out grains and/or going low carb is not the magic bullet. I was listening to Jimmy Moore’s podcast several months ago and there was a woman on who was saying how much weight she lost doing low-carb and then she hit a plateau and Could. Not. Get. Past. It. She kept reducing how much she was eating, eating fewer and fewer carbs. Finally she could go no lower and she went to the doctor and found out her thyroid was low. He put her on thryoid meds and the weight just came right off.
This is why I think low carb and/or grain-free is not a panacea. In fact, I think sometimes it can do more damage than good if we are not doing something to address the hormonal issues. Anyway, I guess this is a whole ‘nother blog post!
If my food journey has not taught me anything else thus far, I think I have learned that the most important thing is to: STAY OPEN TO NEW IDEAS or as I read recently ” Make sure that your words are sweet, because you might just have to eat them”. Oh to be human…
Stay open to new ideas, a great thought to remember.
Regarding the yelling… I won’t say that I have never yelled, but it’s rare in our house. First of all I was yelled at a lot as a child and I hated it. It most always made me cry and then I would be ordered to stop crying. If I couldn’t stop crying I received additional punishment. It was ugly. The other reason I refrain from yelling is that it feels as though it gives too much power to my child. It’s like if she knows she can get to me then she’s energized by that. Kevin Leman says in his book, “Making Your Children Mind Without Losing Yours”, never let them see you sweat. I try hard to maintain my self control and model how I expect her to act. I was highly frustrated with my daughter’s behavior yesterday and so I took a time out from her. I simply said, I’m taking a time out from you and won’t be talking to you right now. This gets to her way more than raising my voice. Just my thoughts…
I think it’s a great idea to take a mommy time out when you think you’re going to lose control. I do that. It makes it a lot easier if you have a daddy around who can step in when you need a break. My husband is gone a lot for work so I don’t always have that option.
The times that I have yelled at Kate, I always apologize to her. It really helps a lot just to say I’m sorry, Mommy was mad and I yelled and I shouldn’t have done that. I’m really sorry.
I think that’s awesome that you apologize. What a great lesson to Kate, great modeling of behavior.
Setting personal boundaries as a parent is so important. Knowing what you will and will not do and getting clear on that absolutely makes the parenting journey more enjoyable.
I love the saying, ‘progress, not perfection’ as I think it applies so well to parenting. I wouldn’t classify myself as a yeller but I definitely get frusterated at times and say or do things that aren’t in-line with my own ideals.
As a parenting coach, I really understand how our parenting evolves and changes to fit our children, their ages and temperaments. I love that my job often has the added benefit of helping me see things about my own parenting at the same time that I’m coaching another parent.
Very good advice! My 3 kids are all grown now,and we used to have the excrutiatingly never-ending bedtime rituals too. I teach preschool and I’m a big believer in not interferring with a child’s pretend play but still feel guilty when I refrain because I really don’t like it!!! In particularly, pushing them on the swings! I confess, I hate it! After reading your insights, I don’t feel so bad!
One thing, staying consistent is hard, but will pay off in the long run. No matter what, they will grow up and wonder of all wonders, grow into these amazing adults who actually become your friends!
My Mom is a social worker who recently turned me onto a parenting philosophy called Love and Logic and I really love it. My daughter is also four and we were having our own battles. Like Kelly said, kids test boundaries. That’s what they are meant to do, and if you don’t have a strategy for consistently dealing with problems when they arise, it’s just a mess. The Love and Logic approach teaches you how to interact with your kids in a way where they are responsible for themselves. When they make a mistake, they need to be the ones to come up with a solution for how to make it right. The key concepts are building self concept by offering choices. Sharing control with kids when we don’t need it makes them much more likely to cooperate when we really do need it. Also, when a problem comes up, ask questions rather than scolding or lecturing so that the child can work through the problem and come up with a solution. There’s a lot more, but I won’t go into all of that here. I was floored by how well the techniques work, and things have really improved for us since I read this. I got the book specifically for kids from birth to age 6.
I love this testimonial. I will share it!
@Beth I just googled this book and found HORRIBLE reviews. Do they really tell you you should lock your kids in a room or let them not feed the dog until it starves and then give the dog away?
I guess I need to read the book before I judge but there are some horrifying reviews out there about Love and Logic.
From one of my readers in re: Love and Logic:
“Oh, those concepts work! I haven’t made it through all of the reading, but what I’ve learned and implemented, has been a success. I wasn’t too far off some of what I’ve learned before. I’m sure my kids get tired of me talking, lol, because we talk through each choice they’ve made. I feel compelled to help them understand their choices, and how to change the outcome (for the future) if it wasn’t desirable! (both to me, OR them). EX: Yesterday – I asked Rylie to keep an eye on the boys in the backyard, to make sure they all played constructively – keeping them from throwing the dirt out of the big pots that need replanted (this is a favorite mess of theirs!) … she got busy playing, forgot about what I asked her to do – the boys were throwing dirt at each other, and got it in their eyes
Rylie felt badly … We talked, and she figured out how to remedy things. She apologized to the boys for not watching them and told them she was sad they got dirt in their eyes – she swept off the patio (that I had swept that morning!) and then came and told me she felt better. Rylie took responsibility for choosing to not keep an eye on her brothers for a few minutes, and figured out how to get over feeling sad about it. Today, when asked to watch the boys for a few minutes while I got dressed, she did a fabulous job! I am ALL about taking responsibility for choices /consequences of those choices. .. Also yesterday, I asked my son to do some extra chores I needed done – told him that he was welcome to call his cousin over as soon as he finished. He chose to not do them. Well, said cousin rang the doorbell, asked if he and Rylie could play. Well, Rylie could, but Tanner could not. Only had 30 minutes of playtime b/c it was dinnertime, and his chores took longer than that 30 minutes. He had to take responsibility for not doing his chores. He felt so sad for not being able to play.. and there was no need for me to get upset he chose to not do chores- he felt bad all by himself that he didn’t get to play! Today, he got up early, got his schoolwork done, and has all his chores done, plus some extras!! 
He’s ready for when his cousin gets out of school to play! Its amazing what happens, when kids have the ability to choose!” https://www.facebook.com/nourishingthewholechild
I don’t recall those specific examples in the book, though it has been a while since I have read it cover to cover. I think I would have remembered those though.
It focuses on giving your kids power through choices (two choices that you’re okay with), so you ask “Do you want to go to bed now or in five minutes?” not “Do you want to go to bed or stay up?”. If they don’t choose, you do. This works well for my daughter, but not so much for my son, who is extremely stubborn.
It also emphasizes natural consequences for poor behavior or mistakes. Jut as an example, my 3 year old dumped her soup on the table at lunch today (on purpose). Rather than getting upset or punishing her, I said “Oh, that’s too bad you chose to dump your soup. It looks like you have a big cleaning job to do.” she had to get a rag and clean up the soup. Hopefully, she’ll think twice about dumping food the next time! The book is really worth a read. Even if everything in it doesn’t work for your child, some parts of it probably will (like with my son). Also, he original Love and Logic is great, but for kids under six, they have a separate book called (I think) Love and Logic for Early Childhood.
@JCF
OK, I’ll have to read the book.
That sounds very similar to what Kelly was recommending in the post.
I do the choice thing all the time. And with the bedtime thing, I say, “You can go to bed and get waffles tomorrow or you can stay up and there will be no waffles.” It’s not about good or bad or right or wrong — these are the choices.
But kids are smart and they know that “getting” something is a reward and is “good” and “not getting” something is “bad.” If you truly don’t care, then maybe it does feel like a choice to her, but you are trying to get her to go to bed, so you do have a preference for her choice and I would imagine that she knows that. Also, the choice is attached to a totally unrelated consequence.
I’m not trying to criticize you, just challenge your thinking!!
I think you’re amazing and I know that Kate has got to have an enormous brain from all that liver and shellfish and butter you fed her as a baby!!!
I am with Leah on this one. When I read “You can go to bed and get waffles tomorrow or you can stay up and there will be no waffles” my interpretation is that because the choice is not connected to a related consequence, it becomes what I perceive to be a manipulation and a form of bribery. Clearly, this is my judgement. I used to use this kind of approach in the decade or so that I served as an educational therapist in private practice and found that it may work to produce the desired behavior but, it is corrosive to the relationship.
Honestly Leah, according to her she chooses not to sleep at all. She drinks water at night instead of her beloved milk because she is convinced that milk will make her fall asleep. Maybe I told her that once.
Last night she wanted cheese before bed and so I gave her some and she called out from her bed, “Mommy, will cheese make me sleep?”
When she gets up in the morning and someone asks her how she slept, she says, “I didn’t sleep.”
So if you have any suggestions for how to make her go to sleep and still make her think it’s her choice, I’m all ears. I just know my daughter and I know that she is very strong-willed, which I think is a good thing. I also know that I have got to get her into bed earlier and I can’t lie around with her for 2 hours on the bed.
I recommend that you consider these books: http://nonviolentcommunication.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=99&utm_source=nvcsite&utm_medium=web&utm_term=normal&utm_content=left-image&utm_campaign=aboutnvc-parenting Dr. Cowan recommends NVC routinely to families.
I searched NVC Las Vegas and found: http://local.naturalsolutionsmag.com/Nonviolent_Communication_North_Las_Vegas_NV-r1313893-North_Las_Vegas_NV.html
http://www.cnvc.org/find-someone?field_first_name_value=&field_last_name_value=&field_cnvc_functions_value_many_to_one=All&tid_1=All&tid_2=All&country=All&City=Las+Vegas&state-province=
I am blessed to have this center here: http://www.baynvc.org/
http://nvcacademy.ning.com/video/parenting-and-nvc-with-inbal — see this video!
lol. ahhh. It wasn’t my child but I have dealt with a 4/5 year old who claims to never sleep. I can’t go into the details to protect his privacy but those comments sound very similar. At the time his life was very turbulent but I don’t want to go into the details. He wasn’t able to verbalize it but I believe he was afraid of sleep for a very specific reason, and a lot of kids are. I can’t tell you what to do, obviously
But I can tell you what I did and what worked for *him.* It’s not a magic bullet or anything but it worked for us. He liked to be read to so bedtime was never about going to sleep, it was about reading a book! We would just go to his bed to “relax and read.” He would usually fall asleep quickly, but sometimes not. And in that case, I would read 3 books and then tell him I was tired and I would just lay there. I know you have already said that this is what you are trying to get away from so it’s probably not going to work for you guys. However, I don’t think I ever was in there for more than 20 minutes (with him! I know, and have experienced, that different kids are different), except on the rare occasion that he really needed it!
He still won’t say that he sleeps, it doesn’t matter though, because he does
I wish I could say that would work. Kate will turn 3 books into 25 books. I’m not kidding. Her daddy has stayed up with her past midnight on many occasions just reading books.
I’m not surprised at all. That’s why I said it was what worked for *us*. It’s one of the reasons I hesitate to share personal experience, because every child and situation is so unique. It is frustrating to hear “well we tried that” (not you, just in general) when it is the approach of working with each child and not the actual routine that is important.
Do you ever give her magnesium? My 4 yo has always been a notorious avoider of sleep, but about 6 months ago I started giving her a daily dose of Natural Calm and it has really helped. We do it in the morning, so she doesn’t necessarily associate it with sleep, but it’s still effective. I make it warm, like a cup of tea, and put it in a fancy teacup with a splash of elderberry concentrate which vastly improves the taste and boosts the immune system too.
Yes we do magnesium baths nightly.
My daughter is about to turn 4 and a notroious bedtime staller
For her I know she’s craving connection with me. I work full time and so does my husband and we also have a 2 year old, so late at night its all about her. She really wants that connection and I really want a break, it’s a bad combo. On good days, I give her some quality one on one time (we set a timer for say 20 minites) then do her bedtime routine and that helps, sort of filling her up with connection as a preventitive measure. I’m still working on it though and some days are a lot harder than others! Another thing that has helped is stories on CD, she has a little CD player that she listens to stories on, she likes that. One thought I had was maybe talking to your daughter about why she doesn’t want to go to bed and acknowledging those feelings. Something like “You don’t want to go to sleep, you want to stay up all night and do X. But staying up all night isn’t good for our body, our bodies need sleep. Hmmmm there must be something we can figure out so you can do X and still get sleep.” Then see what she suggests. If she doesn’t have any suggestions think of some things she can do, like play in the morning, or play for 10 minutes, or whatever she is wanting to do to stay up. You might also try problem solving with her outside of bedtime. I think you mentioned you liked How to Talk so Kids will Listen (me too, loved it!) it has a section on problem solving with kids. I think 4 is old enough to try it, I haven’t yet this is a good reminder for me too!
But that’s how life is – rewards and punishments. Choosing to ignore this will result in confusion down the road for children. What we are seeking to do when we raise our children is to lead them toward adulthood. Rewards and punishments – good and bad – are the way life will treat them – whether we like it or not. God has given us our children to teach and train to be responsible adults. They are under our “control,” and we loosen that control as they get older and become more responsible. Please don’t use these terms as if they are negative, because they are not. Life has consequences. If as adults they choose to not go to work and not call their boss on any given day, they will likely lose their job. So, what’s wrong with giving them consequences or rules or rewards based on going to bed properly?
Wow! I really can’t believe that’s what people are saying. I certainly did not get anything like that from the book. Overall, the approach is very gentle and when I’m implementing their advice well, I feel like a calmer and better parent. My daughter and I are communicating and connecting better, so I would definitely call it a success. She and I have always been very close and spent a lot of time together. I’ve been a stay at home Mom since she was born. However, 10 months ago her baby brother came along and she’s still adjusting to this momentous change. The Love and Logic approach really helped me deal with her attention seeking behaviors and helped me to really regain her trust so that she felt more comfortable opening up about her feelings of jealousy. She gave up nursing on her own when I was pregnant, but recently she has become very jealous of her brother’s nursing time. So, together we decided that she should have her own “nursing” time” where she can come get in my lap and I hold her and snuggle her and gaze into her eyes, just like I do with the baby.
A far cry from locking her in her room! Lol. I guess with any book people will interpret/ implement the advice differently, but the authors really stress coming from a place of love and empathy.
@Beth
Interesting! OK, I will read it! Maybe I just happened upon some weird reviews.
Those of you who disagree with the ‘parenting approach’ of this post may understand where in fact these views come from if you re-read where Kelly says she learned them from at the bottom of the post in “Where I learned these tips”. I would ESPECIALLY note #3. Dr. James Dobson says it all. IMO, his view on parenting creates a false dichotomy in the home and espouses an US vs.THEM parenting mentality riddled with subtle manipulation, power struggles, and unhealthy power and control. Also, I don’t find that his methods are full of grace nor lead people or their children to an intuitive sense of self but create more disconnect in the long term.
Yes! I have the sense I am on Facebook and want to click “like”. Your words reflect my experience — the us vs. them is exactly what I feel repelled by. I have experienced the disconnection that occurs when this kind of theory is put into action when I’ve served in positions of authority in relationship to children. Painful for all involved, I think.
FYI: Love and Logic is Christian book as are James Dobson’s books.
Some methods work better for some kids than others. I am a big fan of Love and Logic, but James Dobson’s book The New Strong Willed Child has given me valuable tools to deal with my very strong willed son and has brought peace to our home.
I, too, disagree with much of Dobson’s approach to parenting. My parents read his books and trusted his methods and I can attest to them causing a lot of harm. Without going into a lot of personal detail, at 26, I still struggle in my relationship with my parents, being that it was not one born out of a lot of mutual respect or understanding. I almost don’t fault my parents for it because the Dobson books/philosophy were such a huge trend in the Christian community in the 80′s and 90′s (and still are quite popular with some, obviously). I also think that some kids may more sensitive to these methods than others.
Now I am expecting my first child and really appreciate all the different insights, experience and books that people are recommending here. It’s interesting too how our own experiences can inform what we believe and practice in terms of child-rearing. I’m wondering if people with similar experiences to mine might tend to jump to the opposite end of the spectrum when raising their own children (i.e. nonviolent communication), and maybe those who felt their parents were much too permissive might be more inclined to use a reward/punishment sort of approach? Just speculating. I think there is usually a happy medium to be found in all things and I pray that as I raise my children, I will be able to find ways of communicating with them effectively that both don’t crush their spirits, and that also don’t allow them to be wild-people. Regardless of what parenting style people choose, it’s sad when parents judge each other instead of being gracious and attempting to learn from each other.
I don’t have kids yet, but this just rang with truth to me. Thanks so much, Kelly and Ann-Marie!
Wow, this could not have come at a better time. Just thinking about ALL of this recently with our two year old!!!:) Related to it ALLLL. Thank you!
Wow, lots of comments–too many for me to read just now, but I’ll come back to them later; they’re half the content of the original post, right? I love to hear what other mothers have to say!
This method of parenting is so similar to Love and Logic, by the legendary Doctors Fay. The basic premise is to love your kids enough to let them “suffer” the logical consequences while they’re young enough to still be safe at home. Lead with sincere empathy when they do something wrong (aw, bummer!), show them that it was their choice (it’s too bad you did ___), followed with the consequence that particularly hands the problem back to the kid (it’s too bad you didn’t pass that test. That must not feel very good. It’s a good thing you know what to do for next time if you want to get a better score). and then DROP IT. They’re very big on not lecturing or having “long chats” (in fact, they say no Anger, Lectures, or Threats).
I didn’t have little ones, but we married when my husband’s three girls ranged in age from 10 to 16. As the incoming stepmom, my best and strongest tactic was to turn into the broken record player–the middle one especially was effective at getting her mom and dad to cave by whining when they said “no.” However, it took less than a week of my sincere and heartfelt, “Sweetie, what did I already tell you was my answer?” before she stopped asking me multiple times. The best way to never lose an argument with a teenager is to refuse to engage when they begin to reason–Love and Logic calls it Brain Drain to answer all of their arguments.
Anyway, there are LOTS and LOTS of L&L materials out there, including CD’s, books, and videos, as well as seminars to take–surely some of the media materials will be a local libraries.
I still screw up–a LOT–but when I remember to keep my cool and remember to be empathetic, that’s when I have the most success. So right in line with this post!
Wow, so many replies to this post! What I think is remarkable, is that with so many parenting styles in the world…most children turn out just fine if they are loved and they feel loved. I have to say in my years of parenting so far (3 daughters, 22, 18, 16) I have used every technique. Bribery? Yep. Time out? Yep. Rewards? Yep. Punishment? You bet. And I am still using them. Each of my children are very different in their personalities and the way they respond to different situations. What works for one would never work for the other, so being flexible is key for me. I know I will do things wrong (and will hear about it, no doubt). But the best advice my mother gave me was “Just love them”.
Wonderful comment, Pak!!!
Awesome to see a Dr. Dobson plug. When did parents decide kids needed best friends and not authority figures anyway???
did someone actually suggest that parents should be their child’s best friend? I missed that if they did.
Doesn’t Dobson support spanking? Ugh!!
Yes. Punitive parenting.
I personally don’t EVER support spanking.
I haven’t read any of Dobson’s books either.
Dedicated to raising the global awareness of conscious parenting, we seek to empower parents and caregivers by guiding them toward a family dynamic based in love rather than one based in fear. https://www.facebook.com/TEACHthroughLOVE?sk=app_4949752878
Kelly I am curious what you were feeding your son that was keeping him awake?
Oh that was back before my “food conversion” and we were eating a lot of CRAP I’m sorry to say. So who knows if it was the rotten oils, the fake colors and flavors in the food, the HFCS or what? He was eating it all.
Now he is the sweetest kid and he’s almost 13!
Kelly
This post made me cringe. I truly from the depths of my heart do not believe in reward/punishment based parenting. We get to share our lives with our children, we are not their keepers. They are full human beings who deserve respect. If you want a child to grow up trusting her own voice, becoming confident and wise then manipulation is counterproductive to that goal. Sleep is good but there is no substitute for security and love. Cuddling with your child in bed is love. Playing at the park with her only because she went to bed without a fuss isn’t. Play with your kids, cuddle with your kids, love on your kids because when you are old and gray and wiser to what is important in life you will know that it was and is your children. And that also goes for the other people in your life. People and relationships are what matter. And you don’t have to be resentful. You just have to change your heart.
I too, from the depths of my heart do not believe in reward/punishment based parenting … or educating. Many schools are based on this model as well. I am grateful this issue has come up in our community. After having led Nourishing Our Children for 6 years, I launched Nourishing The Whole Child in the aftermath of a series of posts on spanking https://www.facebook.com/nourishingourchildren/posts/229651617100335 and https://www.facebook.com/nourishingourchildren/posts/318895641458093 and https://www.facebook.com/nourishingourchildren/posts/218262444912832
https://www.facebook.com/questions/10150363153035172/?qa_ref=ssp
While I am deeply committed to educating parents about how to nourish and not merely feed their children, I also feel deeply committed to educating parents about the corrosive effects of a punitive based approach to parenting. Perhaps the comments on this post may inspire some to explore an alternative approach.
Great advice, I have always lived by the “say what you mean and mean what you say”. It makes a huge difference in the attitude of your children. They want to believe you. If you give rewards or punishments you must follow through.
BETH O – YES, you said it the best! Love and logic is awesome…. And I am not a very patient mom. And it has saved me from being the mom I hated! Yelling and slamming cupboards. Shit, that says how old I am. Cupboards! Haha. Really AM, you will like it. I also read how to talk so your kids will listen….etc. think it is also a great book. L & L have FREE info on their site. I always listen to CD while I am doing paperwork. Thanks, I know you are working hard! Are you in LA?
Great post. I totally get the ‘not wanting to play imaginary games’ thing. I CAN’T do it, but I make sure my (7yo) daughter regularly has friends over who can, and also she is very lucky to have a Nana who loves to play that way (maybe I will with my Grandkids too). Reading, physical play, other stuff is fine. But I don’t want to be a cat. Ever.
The sleep thing is more complicated for me. I am a single mother and have been since I left my daughter’s abusive (to me) father when she was 7 weeks old. She’s an only child. The first couple of years were very, very rough and I think I would have lost my mind if we had not shared a bed. I breastfed her until she weaned herself at 2 1/2 years old, not something I planned to do, but something that felt natural and absolutely necessary once I was doing it. I believe she absolutely needed that attachment, emotionally.
Since she was very little she has had to negotiate the two very different households of her Mum and Dad. Two households where behavioral expectations, sleeping habits, eating habits, and pretty well everything else differ enormously. What I have tried to provide is a certain predictability, a certain security that she can count on, in the areas where I am able too. Sleep has been one of those areas. While she was breastfeeding she would fall asleep while suckling. Once she was weaned she would fall asleep in my arms. At a certain age (4 I think) she moved (not voluntarily) into her own room/bed, and I would stay with her until she fell asleep. But this was awful. For me. Because I wasn’t in the bed with her, and because she knew that at some point I was going to leave the room, she would try very hard not to fall asleep. I would get so angry, and feel so resentful. Also, every morning when I woke up I would find her there next to me. Eventually, about a year ago, I gave up and she moved back into my bed permanently (except when she has friends over for sleepovers – then she sleeps in her own bed). This has been better for me. Maybe not so much for her. After story time, while she lies next to me with one gorgeous arm draped over me (so she will know if I try to make a run for it), I sit up in bed and watch TV (with headphones) or check my emails, read, or whatever it is that I want to do. But I’m pretty sure she doesn’t sleep as soundly – I mean the light and emf from the TV must intrude, and my movements and activity must likewise disturb her at times. But I have my sanity back. And I don’t hate bedtimes anymore, or resent her.
However, I always assumed that at some stage it would become embarrassing for her to still be sleeping with her Mum (I’m Australian, we say Mum, not Mom) and she would make the decision not too. But this has not happened. Nor is there any sign that this will ever happen. In fact she often announces with complete certainty that she will still want to sleep with me when she’s an adult – and I’m starting to believe her!
While I love certain aspects of sleeping with her, particularly waking up with her in the mornings, I’m pretty sure that both of us would sleep better in our own beds (I know I do when she’s away). I’m also not sure if I’m doing her a service in the long term. I run a very disciplined household, but when it comes to sleep I’m a big softie. This is why:
As a child I had horrendous insomnia, and terrible nightmares for years and years. My sister had night terrors. It never occurred to me to tell my parents or seek help. My daughter sleeps like me and I see myself in her. Remembering what I was like as a child, I know full well that children usually do not volunteer the things they worry about, and I know my daughter doesn’t. Falling asleep can be stressful for her, neither of us are the type of sleepers who can close their eyes when tired and just drift off. No matter how tired we are it still takes a long time to wind down (whether she’s wrapped in my arms or not – she’s always been this way). Because I can see myself in her in this regard I have a lot of empathy. She is dead frightened of being on her own in the dark, and remembering my own torment as a child I can relate. But I was raised in a tense, miserable household, she is not. I don’t completely understand the source of her fear, but I can empathize that it’s real, and now I wonder if we’re both just hardwired to be a bit anxious around sleep. I know that when she’s awake she is rarely still and quiet. Then there’s the consistency thing I was speaking of – wanting to comfort her and nurture her when she’s here, so that she never has a doubt of my love and connection to her when she’s away. I tell her there’s a rainbow that connects our hearts, and it bends and turns but never breaks, no matter how far away she is.
At all other times, my daughter is an outgoing, confident, bubbly, well adjusted kid. She has a good relationship with her Dad, and lots of people in her life that love her. It’s just the sleep thing that worries me. But she sleeps fine – provided she’s with me. I usually don’t tell other adults that my 7 year old still sleeps with me, because they generally react with shock and spoken (or unspoken) judgement. I’m just wondering if I should be concerned, or not. And is there a way that I can address my daughters fear of being alone in the dark without feeling like I’m torturing her? I’ve tried rewards and incentives in the past, but her fear ALWAYS wins, and then she feels like she’s failed. It’s real. I’m not sure what I can do about that. My plan more recently has been less of a plan and more of a decision to just wait it out. Not sure if that is the best approach FOR HER or not. Anyway, I know I’ve just spewed out a LOT of info, but your insights would be very much appreciated. I loved this post
Love, Lara Xxo
p.s. (I’m paleo, but she’s not, although she eats 90% paleo when she’s with me. There’s never dessert or other stimulants before bedtime).
Lara, I don’t know if you were asking for Ann Marie’s insights or mine, but what I’d say is that you have found what works for your family, and from what you’ve said I really think you’re doing the right thing in waiting it out and not making it a bigger deal than it needs to be. You said yourself that “I have my sanity back. And I don’t hate bedtimes anymore, or resent her.”
Kelly
Hi, Lara,
Honestly I think there could be some issues with nutrition.
1. I’d supplement — both of you — with magnesium. Recurring nightmares may indicate a magnesium deficiency because magnesium directly affects the release of stress hormones. See my post on magnesium deficiency: http://www.cheeseslave.com/are-you-suffering-from-magnesium-deficiency/
Most of us are magnesium deficient but since you are paleo, you may be even more prone to magnesium deficiency unless you eat an abundance of cooked greens such as kale and spinach and seaweed and bone broth. Even then you still may be magnesium deficient as it is very easy to be deficient. Other sources of magnesium are properly prepared whole grains, nuts, seeds and legumes.
I’ve started my daughter on magnesium baths just recently. The baths are really your best bet — or the magnesium oil spray if you can handle it (it can sting a bit; but you can dilute it).
2. I’d also read The Mood Cure by Julia Ross. You both may have neurotransmitter deficiencies which may be causing the difficulty falling asleep, insomnia, and nightmares.
Ann Marie, you’re so gracious with people who are determined to convince you that you’re wrong.
Wonderful advice! I’m not a parent, but I can still recognize good parenting advice when I see it!
I find this to be horrid parenting advice. I hope you will stick to real food in the future. There is a wealth of great advice out there and Dr. Laura Markham is just as good a place to start as any. http://www.ahaparenting.com/
I’m surprised Kate gets to play with Barbies, Ann Marie. Since you embrace REAL food, have you considered embracing toys that reflect REAL women? I’ve got three daughters, and we’ve never had a Barbie in the house. We to get lots of kitchen equipment in the bath though…Namaste!
I grew up with Barbies, too. I don’t have a problem with them.
What a shame you’re advocating such parenting techniques that are not based on good science. Very unlike your approach to food and not very fitting with the blog.
As I’m sure you’re aware with diet, sometimes things appear to be working but the damage being caused is much more long term. The same is the case with reward/punishment systems. And yes, a reward system DOES include rewards as withholding a much longed for reward IS a punishment for a child.
I’d love for you to read Dr Louise Porter’s “Children are people too”. She explains the link between reward systems and poor self esteem perfectly. This is a good start:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.louiseporter.com.au%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F05%2FEvidence-about-guidance.pdf
Sorry… DOES include *punishments*, as withholding…
Thank you for this lead … I will look into it!
Hmm. I find it understandable (because we’re busy, caught up in our things), yet odd, that parents continue to think that children (people) need to be “rewarded” and “punished” in order to live in society (at-home society, public society, etc.). You can do everything mentioned in Kelly’s post – without the bribes or the punishment! You can do it while treating your child as a spiritual equal, just an inexperienced person with a less-developed brain. You are in charge, you set the rules, you make things happen. I call it persistence or insistence. It’s going to take time and repetition – but it would take time anyway with rewards and punishments. It’s going to take honesty: hey, I know we’re changing the game here, I was wrong the way we did things before, but it’s not working for me. And about the play, definitely don’t play something if you dislike it. Be honest: find a way to enjoy it, do something else, or just sit and watch. There is a great book called Playful Parenting, which encourages adults who wouldn’t play at all to try a little play, but I don’t recall the author suggesting you play something you hate unless you are turning it into something you like.
I concur — ”A person’s a person, no matter how small.” — Dr. Seuss, author. I like your approach and will share it!
I guess it depends on what sort of relationship you want with your children one where they are compliant because they fear what your reaction will be if they aren’t or one where everyone cooperates respectfully and mindful of one another’s needs.
Here is another resource that I discovered — they describe themselves as “dedicated to raising the global awareness of conscious parenting, we seek to empower parents and caregivers by guiding them toward a family dynamic based in love rather than one based in fear”. https://www.facebook.com/TEACHthroughLOVE?sk=app_4949752878
http://www.littleheartsbooks.com/2012/01/20/toddlers-teens-in-the-making/
I read this tonight and thought of this post and all the comments.
wow, Kelly, you are DO DEAD ON!! Wonderful tips.
We were never blessed w/ children, but I was raised w/ BOUNDARIES and that is what I beleve 1000%, children push you so you give them boundaries. that is their security. W0nderful post,
I love your #2 in the part “they will test you” Had a good chruckle about that……..I can hear the monotone drool, repeating the same thing over and over and o-v-e-r.
I would add that having charts with visuals makes all the difference in the world.
When kids SEE the punishment and reward, they are more likely to comply.
At bedtime, making a little
If you…then chart would be really helpful for kids under 3rd grade or any kids with special needs.
Can you tell I was a teacher and a current of a kid with autism?
Great post.
I love changing it up around here…
Use real pictures too.
Not clip art.
177 comments? WOW. Kelly, you are bang on with this advice. I have never understood parents who will sit down and play pretend with their kids (I mean, if you enjoy that, more power to ya, but most do not and do it b/c they think they have to.) I have to believe this parents-playing-with-kids phenomenon is largely a modern day occurrence. It is just not part and parcel of parenting.
I also think it happens more with parents of only one or two kids. When you have three or four, you tell the kids to play together. But when you have one, you feel it is your duty. And perhaps you do have to ante up a bit more, but I agree, that parents should do things with their kids that they enjoy too. I bake with my kids, play board games, and take them places, stuff like that. But when they want me to play with them (and they never ask anymore, lol) I just tell them that’s why I gave them siblings.
The bedtime advice was great too. I love Dobson’s books and also John Rosemond – for anyone looking for good, no-nonsense resources.
I’m cross-posting this from Kelly’s page with a few additions…. Since I am not a parent, I suppose my opinions are immediately dismissible, but I always *intended* to become a parent, however, the right guy didn’t come along in time. That’s another story. The point is, all human beings rightly have an interest in how children are raised. We live with the results of various functional and dysfunctional parenting styles around us, and we were all once kids, raised by parents. And they all made mistakes. (I have been a babysitter, I have siblings, I have nieces and nephews, and I have been a child!)
I’m convinced that there is not just one, single correct parenting style that is right for everybody. There are multiple effective and positive styles that all work for some people, at least some of the time, but not for everyone. (Also, how do you define what “works”? Lack of rebellion? Kids always do exactly what they’re told? Is that success from the child’s point of view? From the grown-up child’s point of view? Lots of perspectives might yield different definitions.)
I think part of the equation that’s not discussed much is that sometimes a parent/child combo is just a bad combination of personality types, through no one’s fault. Just some parents and some kids don’t mesh well, they clash for no special reason, or for a million tiny reasons. So parenting techniques that work with 4 out of 5 children may make the fifth child miserable and the parents moan, what’s wrong with him/her? Or, what’s wrong with us now? It doesn’t mean they’re bad or the kid is bad. You just can’t reach everybody through the same exact tactics. Maybe realization that sometimes there is just a mismatch would help both parents and kids in a difficult relationship to have more compassion for themselves and the other and to be more flexible.
That said, I thought the advice Kelly gave AnnMarie was very wise, very respectful, and probably very effective! It seems to me her approach is one of teaching about *choice* and *consequences* of choice. Is that manipulative? Not in any unfair, emotionally manipulative way, no, I don’t think so. If you were saying “go to bed (or whatever) or Mommy won’t love you,” now THAT would be emotionally manipulative, damaging, and utterly unacceptable. I think Kelly clearly was not advocating that. I don’t think teaching about choices and consequences is *at all* the same as putting everything in terms of reward and punishment. That’s a HUGE difference in my mind.
I am intrigued by what I have learned about nonviolent communication, and I am trying to learn more. When I think back on my childhood, it wasn’t being sent to bed without dinner once or twice that bothered me, it wasn’t even getting paddled once or twice (I’m sure it was little more than that). What bothered me then and now was when my mom’s anger was used to manipulate my behavior. That did feel violent and disrespectful. I didn’t resent having chores around the house. I resented that my brothers tended to get out of those things over the years and I was increasingly relied upon, while my brothers made fun of me with comments like “little mother!”. (That *wasn’t* a compliment.) I did not have a problem with being obedient, I always tried to be obedient. I had a problem with no one listening to what was important to me, and getting yelled at when I dared to ask (once!) for something we couldn’t afford. (I was very sensitive!) I hated it when my mom bought me something my stepdad wouldn’t have approved of and made me keep it secret. If we can’t afford it, I’ll live with it. (I never minded having second-hand barbies, etc.)
I’m not trying to dump on my parents here, because they did their best, I love them, and they overall did a great job in difficult circumstances. But there being consequences to choices was never a burden. That I felt ignored, invisible, not listened to and taken for granted (as household slave labor compared to my brothers), now that caused me years of resentment. My stepfather’s sexism rankled, though I know it comes from his background and he didn’t *mean* to be a jerk. Yeah, I am still not totally over it, I admit. He is very domineering, and while he was a blessing to our family in many ways, we, or at least I, also suffered in various ways from his overweening influence.
Maybe this is too much information, if so I’m sorry, but I guess I would boil it down to, whatever parents do in true LOVE for their children will probably work out for the best, if only because children who are loved will probably be capable of forgiveness. What parents do out of *ego* and *anger* or frustration, lack of sleep etc., probably will be more difficult for the child to deal with and will probably not be as constructive.
Finally, I have tremendous respect for the difficult and important job of parenting, and I salute all you thoughtful moms and dads out there!
You said…
I’m convinced that there is not just one, single correct parenting style that is right for everybody. There are multiple effective and positive styles that all work for some people, at least some of the time, but not for everyone. (Also, how do you define what “works”? Lack of rebellion? Kids always do exactly what they’re told? Is that success from the child’s point of view? From the grown-up child’s point of view? Lots of perspectives might yield different definitions.)
I think part of the equation that’s not discussed much is that sometimes a parent/child combo is just a bad combination of personality types, through no one’s fault. Just some parents and some kids don’t mesh well, they clash for no special reason, or for a million tiny reasons. So parenting techniques that work with 4 out of 5 children may make the fifth child miserable and the parents moan, what’s wrong with him/her? Or, what’s wrong with us now? It doesn’t mean they’re bad or the kid is bad. You just can’t reach everybody through the same exact tactics. Maybe realization that sometimes there is just a mismatch would help both parents and kids in a difficult relationship to have more compassion for themselves and the other and to be more flexible.
**** I thought this was amazingly well said. I have three boys, 10, 8 and almost 6. Before I had kids, I had a lot of strong ideas about how I planned to parent. Actually parenting (not working as a therapist, babysitting or being an aunt – my previous roles before kids) rocked my world. I found that I had to parent each child somewhat differently based on their particular temperament, strengths and weaknesses. I also found that I had to adjust my parenting to meet some of my own needs.
For instance, I know that I am at my very best early in the day. At night, particularly when my husband is traveling, I am just cooked by the end of the day. I feel touched out and in need of quiet and personal space. I simply can’t spend an hour or more lying in my sons’ beds when I’m feeling that way. I end up frustrated, resentful and sometimes yelling. I’m not willing to put myself in a position where my own fatigue and mood set me and my kids up to have a potentially really negative interaction. I would rather spend a few minutes tucking them in then be truthful with them – I’m feeling pretty crabby tonight and need to go do [whatever] to try and relax. We can snuggle / read books / whatever in the morning.”
I find it very interesting when a poster is very judgmental about someone else’s parenting style. I use some orinciples of AP, I use some love and logic, I use some rewards and punishment, and sometimes I just plain ol’ yell (not my finest moments). What I choose depends on the kid, the situation, the stressors we are experiencing, how tired all of us are and a host of other variables. I think there is good and bad in each approach, and maintaining that only one style works in every situation, for every child and every parent seems inflexible.
I had planned to do a lot more AP but I got into this ugly cycle of failing to be the “perfect” AP parent, then I would mentally beat myself up for being such a sucky parent which led to me to a place where I was chronically overly sensitive and took all of kid’s behavior so personally which led to more less-than-perfect parenting choices. I found that giving myself a little grace by picking and choosing the best of a variety of parenting styles in turn led me to a place of being able to give more grace to my kids.
Thank you Kelly for being brave enough to post on parenting.
Jeanmarie,
If you explore NVC a bit future, you’ll likely discover that a child need not serve to be obedient to their parents. This whole notion of obedience is based on fear of rejection or punishment or as I see it — the spin term “consequence”. The consequences that have been put forth here, from my perspective, are about punishment. You don’t do as I want you to do, so I will withhold something that you want. It is a strategy that some parents are using to change their children’s behavior so that the parents meet their own needs for ease, or sleep, or whatever it is they are attempting to get met. However this not the only strategy and I believe it does not lead to a sense of connection between parent and child.
In my experience, there is a very different experience between children and adults when there is an authentic willingness to cooperate, which is fostered through communication, empathy, understanding and compassion. “Cooperative” feels very different to me emotionally and physically than “obedient”.
You have touched on something I’ve been meaning to respond with: different parents and different children respond to different methods. Like Brenda I had worked in childcare and had all kinds of plans on how I would parent. Heck, my mother in law raised three kids of her own as well as taught kindergarten for 30 years. Then I had my oldest. We both found our strongly held beliefs shaken. Somethings I planned didn’t work with me as a parent (or her as a grandparent). Some things didn’t work for my child. When I had a second child it was even more evident that individuality plays a HUGE role in what works. While we keep the basics consistent we have found that different child/parent (or grandparent) combos thrive with different methods.
Finding what works for each parent and child is not easy. You face judgement from every direction and the stakes couldn’t be higher. At the end of the day we have to shrug the judgements and do our best. Truth be told, even imperfect parents manage to raise great kids. From my own experience, my mother’s imperfections actually taught me more meaningful lessons than anything else.
Amen to Dawn: “The more I learn from and about my child, the more I realize that healthy, sustainable family life is almost totally incompatible with the stressful demands of modern civilization. Proper attention to once sphere almost always leads to abysmal neglect of the other. We all need a village…”
So many good points in this discussion! I’m enjoying this.
Here is a community that is dedicated to raising the global awareness of conscious parenting — “we seek to empower parents and caregivers by guiding them toward a family dynamic based in love rather than one based in fear”. https://www.facebook.com/TEACHthroughLOVE?sk=app_4949752878
Laurie Cohen Peters, could you explain what you mean by “transitioning” your child? I don’t follow.
” I actually transitioned my child at Waldorf Preschool …”
Thanks!
Personally, I have a melting pot of parenting ways. I never reward for good behavior. I use Non-violent communication in PLAIN SIMPLE terms.
” Echo, you are repeating yourself. Mama is getting nervous by this. I need to finish cooking, would you sit down and color so I can get dinner finished ? ”
If she decides to continue with her behavior, I slam her with consistency.
In this case, I would remind her of a simple truth.
Like… ” Patience is a virtue.” ( lessons we warmly talk about daily )
If she decides to continue, I tell her she is ” stirring trouble ”
Then I ask her to take a deep breath, and take control of her feelings.
( lessons we warmly talk about daily )
If she looses control and deliberately manipulates…
I tell her she will receive a spanking.
There is no 1,2,3 or warnings or bribes.
There is grace by way of consistent empathy.
When she denies these things, she is spanked.
Never in anger, never in confusion.
We do not yell.
I have come to this path as a parent by way of many different inspirations, but mostly my own experiences. I started out on the other end of the spectrum. With no intentions on using corporate punishment whatsoever ! Attachment parenting ( extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping, slinging, natural birth ) was something that has always come naturally to me. But when it came time to discipline, I have had my own experience. And I firmly believe in my ways. It is so true that every child is different.
I would never preach my parenting choices to another soul. But I would say you should be consistent in whatever you choose to do.
I was very loved as a child, but because of my mother’s constant yelling and inconsistency, I had serious mental illness. And only until I became a mother, and followed my own path did I finally heal.
FYI :
There are many peaceful cultures that spank children. Like the Tibetan culture. Monks are whipped for disobedience.
“Researchers have also found that children who are spanked show higher rates of aggression and delinquency in childhood than those who were not spanked. As adults, they are more prone to depression, feelings of alienation, use of violence toward a spouse, and lower economic and professional achievement. None of this is what we want for our children.” ~Alvin Poussaint, M.D., Professor of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School
My dad spanked us a couple times and I remember it vividly, it was terrifying and horrible. I would never spank my child.
“When a child hits a child, we call it aggression.
When a child hits an adult, we call it hostility.
When an adult hits an adult, we call is assault.
When an adult hits a child, we call it discipline.”
Haim G. Ginott
I was just going to say, Sandrine, how wrong it is that we call it “spanking”. It’s a euphemism for what it really is: beating a child.
I found Tara’s post has troubled me for several days. I consider it an oxymoron to call a culture peaceful if they spank or whip. I feel so disheartened and deflated by quite a few responses in this comment chain. I have felt a sense of physical and emotional heart break as I read about how some parents relate to their children — not just in the realm of physical punishment but, the entire reward/punishment approach.
In re: to corporal punishment in particular:
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/spanked.html
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html
http://www.naturalchild.org/marshall_rosenberg/protective_use_of_force.html
I too, am feeling very disheartened by many things that have been said. There are several things that I am waiting to find the words to respond to. I agree that you cannot call a culture when they hit/whip their children.
I didn’t know that you were the author of Nourishing Our Children, until the discussion in this thread. The things you have said have made me an even more loyal follower of your blog. Thank you!
Thank you so much for your empathy, Leah. This experience has left me actively seeking refuge within the peaceful parenting, non-voilent communication community. My mind knows that empathy is one key component to staying connected and I also know these are strategies parents are employing to get their own needs met, however my heart breaks. I keep thinking of Marshall Rosenberg’s words, “a tragic attempt to get a need met”. I feel challenged to stay connected to those whose strategies don’t meet a plethora of my own needs! I love NVC for teaching us how to resist the inclination to create an enemy image of those we disagree with.
I have lead Nourishing Our Children http://www.nourishingourchildren.org since 2005. I only launched the blog in December 2011: http://www.nourishingourchildren.wordpress.com
Have you joined us on Facebook? https://www.facebook.com/nourishingourchildren
I also lead Nourishing The Whole Child: https://www.facebook.com/nourishingthewholechild
I believe that what we put into our children’s mouths is not the only way we nourish them. What we put into their ears and hearts is equally important.
“I believe that what we put into our children’s mouths is not the only way we nourish them. What we put into their ears and hearts is equally important.”
Yes! absolutely!
oh, and also… I have joined you on facebook (because of this discussion) and I found about about your book club, which I am TOTALLY excited about and my copy of the book *just* came in the mail!!
Sandrine, I too felt discouraged but your comments and responses (as well as others) helped me to feel better! I only commented once above but like Leah I do felt more drawn to Nourishing Our Children after reading your comments!
I think the comments can also be encouraging because certainly all these comments and links must be reaching some people and that is great! Plus I love reading and finding others with similar parenting beliefs so it was great to read your comments!
I wanted to share a short video (4 min) by Carrie Contey (Parenting coach who is just amazing!). In the video she talks about connection, slowing down and enjoying when interacting with our children. And I love how she says don’t worry about doing it every time, just 1 out of 20!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwRqTkqDFUw&feature=related
Thank you for your encouragement! It is quite heartening to know that the considerable amount of time and energy I have spent on these responses are of value! I will take a look at the video now!
Thanks, Sandrine, for sharing your insights. See my note at the top.
This is an awesome article. I too do not like playing Barbies, so instead I have built up a large arsenal of art projects, board games/other games, and other things for us to do together. Sometimes we just think of something we want to know more about or learn about and we do research together on the internet and learn the answers and watch short clips pertaining to what we learned, etc. It’s so much better than Barbies, and she still plays Barbies with her friends on occasion.
Positive reinforcement is the way to go. I’m firmly against spanking for many reasons, mainly because it’s mean and it’s not necessary. This article has great ideas, all of which I know for a fact work! All kids are different, so you might have to tweak things a bit, but if you are consistent, it will work.
I’m a mom of four adults, and grandmom of four, going on five and naturally, I’ve got a few thoughts about bedtime. Two things.
1. Contrary to conventional wisdom, quiet time before bedtime is not the most useful activity to help children sleep. Vigorous play, leading to laughter is! running, wrestling [the child always must win--but challenging enough that the child can laugh] and anything else you can think of–but not tickling which requires the child to lose control. This kind of play is very reassuring to a child, leading to the second point.
2. Children will fall asleep easily, usually, if they feel well connected to the people around them. Nurturing that connection takes different strategies for children than what we’re used to doing for adults. They need to laugh with us, and be allowed to cry hard and rage with us, without interruption or condemnation.
I’ve found these pretty effective.
Interesting! I used to berate my husband for winding up the baby right before bedtime, though I relaxed about it as he got older (he’s 3.5 now). I do think you are spot on about connections before bedtime. I actually used to do that with my husband when we were newlyweds…if we didn’t have enough connection time before bedtime, I would poke at him while he was trying to sleep because I wanted his attention.
Also as I was reading all these comments, I just kept thinking that regardless of what methods you use to get your child to sleep, you need to make sure you are reconnecting with them before bed each night.
I really enjoyed reading all the responses to this article! Bedtime goes well for us (in my opinion): Daddy takes care of pajamas, teeth brushing, story, and I take care of snack, supplements, prayer and nursing. He’s 3.5 and still nurses at night, and I am okay with that! I stopped nursing in bed when I started to dislike that, so now I nurse in a comfy cosy chair while I read on my iPhone. If he falls asleep, great! If not, he lies in his bed while I read in the chair. I love to read, so this works for me. If he can’t fall asleep for some reason, he lies down with Daddy. Works for us, though I can understand how this would not work for others. I think whatever method helps your child feel secure is the best method!
Hey Guys – if your into or want to eat healthier you got to checkout this site for some ultra healthy recipes – http://www.debragarner.com/debras-dvd/
Fastidious answer back in return of this query with genuine arguments and describing the whole thing about that.