This weekend I traveled to Southern California where I was fortunate enough to eat foie gras at two different restaurants. And it was heavenly.
Sadly, beginning in July 2012, foie gras will be banned in the state of California. I’m horrified and angry that California, a state where I spent over 20 years of my life (and paid taxes), has outlawed this delectable traditional food.
Why Foie Gras?
I know I’ll get negative comments on this post because I always do whenever I write about foie gras. But I won’t stop writing about foie gras, because I adore it. Foie gras is one of my very favorite foods (probably my second favorite after Époisses raw milk cheese).
Foie gras (pronounced “fwah grah”) is the fattened liver of a duck or goose produced by a feeding process called gavage. Did I mention that it is liver? Hands down, the most nutritious food on the planet.
There are a lot of liver haters out there. But if you haven’t had foie gras, you have never had the best tasting liver that exists. The gavage process transforms the liver into a velvety, melt-in-your-mouth, flavor explosion. It’s truly one of the most fabulous foods on earth.
But What About Animal Cruelty?
There is nothing cruel about gavage. Ducks and geese do not have a gag reflex. They can swallow large fish and other prey without pain. The gavage (or “force feeding” as it is called, which I think is not an accurate term) does not hurt them in any way.
My mother visited a foie gras farm on a recent trip to France. When she asked if the gavage hurt the geese, the farmer said, “Are you kidding me? They line up for it.”
Michael Ginor, owner of Hudson Valley Foie Gras, author of Foie Gras… A Passion, claims his birds come to him to be fed and says this is important because “a stressed or hurt bird won’t eat and digest well or produce a foie gras.” (Source)
Furthermore, in nature, ducks and geese naturally gorge themselves on grains and fatten their livers. They do this prior to migration. As early as 2500 BC, ancient Egyptians fattened birds forced overfeeding.
Chefs and Foie Gras Producers are Outraged
Ariane Daguin, owner of D’Artagnan, a foie gras distributor, writes:
Although foie gras production methods are safe and humane, animal rights extremists are pushing to make the delicacy illegal throughout the country. This movement is not only anti-agriculture, but at its very soul, anti-American. Currently, the only state with a ban in place is California, where producing and selling foie gras will be prohibited as of July 1, 2012. Not only will this decimate the only foie gras farm in the state, it will impact countless restaurants. The ban infringes on the freedom of the nearly 40 million citizens of California.
Even if you don’t eat or sell foie gras, this ban will impact you. The issue is not about whether the production methods are safe and humane — scientific studies prove they are. The issue is the right of the public to choose what to eat. It is about the American value of freedom, which includes the freedom to eat and sell what is lawfully produced.
Chef Ludo Lefebvre concurs:
“I want people to have the freedom to eat what they want. Animal rights people would turn everyone into a vegan if they could. I don’t want animal rights people to tell me what to eat… Foie gras is one of the greatest ingredients, a French delicacy. I was born and raised with foie gras. It’s like if you took kimchi away from the Korean people.” (Source)
Chef Anthony Bourdain made this video showing that foie gras is not cruel:
Here’s another video worth watching:
Attend the Dinner
What can you do to repeal this outrageous law?
If you live in Southern California, you can go tomorrow night (Monday, March 12, 2012) to Haven Gastropub for a foie gras dinner.
Chef Greg Daniels, on the dinner:
Foie gras production by responsible, artisan farmers in the U.S. is ethical and humane. Ducks naturally overeat to fatten up for migration, and farmers have just harnessed that natural instinct. The gavage they use to feed doesn’t hurt the duck. The fact is when you see pictures or videos of tubes being pushed down a duck’s throat, it looks painful: however, ducks have no gag reflex, they breathe through their tongues, and they swallow whole fish. It’s just not true to say that this is animal cruelty. That’s where the problem lies: LIES.
If you want to go after the real criminals, go after the beef and poultry producers. The atrocities that take place in factory farming are so clear and disgusting, but these are big enemies – they have money. They have lobbyists. They don’t fold.
That’s why we’re doing this dinner: to not fold. To not just give up and go away quietly. This a chance to be heard, and we’re taking it. We deserve to be able to serve foie gras. It’s an ethical and humane choice that we make — right alongside the other choices of sustainable seafood and humanely raised beef and pork. It’s a decision we base on the education we obtain on a daily basis from those that are connected to our farmers, and even the farmers themselves.
We want people to know that these good choices are out there, and that foie gras is one of them. (Source)
How I wish I wasn’t getting on a plane in a few minutes to fly back to Vegas today! If I didn’t have to go back to work and to my family, I would be at this dinner.
If you are in the vicinity, I hope you will make every effort to go.
If you can’t make it, I hope you will take a moment and sign the petition below.
Sign the Petition
If you support the right to eat the food of your choice, please click here to sign the petition to keep foie gras legal in California.
What Do You Think?
Do you support the freedom of foie gras farmers and chefs to provide this nourishing, nutrient-dense food to those of us who want to eat it? Or do you think foie gras should be banned? Please share your thoughts in the comments below.
Photo credits: Bite Club Eats, Wikipedia
{ 132 comments… read them below or add one }
Thank you, Ann Marie! I couldn’t agree more. If people really care about animal rights, they will go after CAFOs. I’m sure there are some cruel foie gras farms, just as there are cruel feed lots and farms for all kinds of meat. However, humanely-raised foie gras is not cruel at all, and no one should be able to outright ban a type of food. I’m sure the vegans wouldn’t be happy if we banned soy, which has all sorts of negative farming practices associated with it.
Oh, and as some famous cookbook author said (I think Paula Wolfert??), I’d rather be a foie gras duck than a tyson chicken!
That’s a great quote!
Amen sister!!!
I don’t like foie gras (it’s awesome being a supertaster… not) but it’s so important for California not to set this precedent and take away access to a highly nutritious traditional food. I signed the petition — thanks for posting about this!
I a foie gras in France about 15 years ago. I had never had it before, and it was the best thing I ate the whole time I was there; and that’s saying a lot because everything I ate there was soooo good. Have never seen it on a menu in the places we have lived, but we are going to Hilton Head Island this next week and I saw it on the menu of Robert Irvine’s Eat! restaurant. Guess who is going to have foie gras! I signed the petition.
Sorry, it’s I ate foie gras.
I agree with Amy–animal rights activists are targeting the wrong issue. The real issue is factory farming and other mass farming techniques. If one is conscious about where they source their foie gras you can get it humanely raised. There is such a disconnect sometimes with the cycle of life-and-death it boggles my mind. So many more organisms die because of clear-cutting and mono-cropping. Also, many traditional cultures believe that everything has a spirit/consciousness–including plants. To me it makes sense to do you best to find the highest quality of food available and live from a place of gratitude that the Earth provides us with everything we need. But I know that’s too woo-woo for some people.
Funny, I was just reading about my city’s new plastic shopping bag ban when my e-mail “dinged” with this post on the California foie gras ban.
Ann Marie, you are absolutely correct when you write, “The issue is the right of the public to choose what to eat. It is about the American value of freedom, which includes the freedom to eat and sell what is lawfully produced.”
American prosperity relies on the invisible hand of a free-market economy. If citizens demand a product, then businesses create and supply the product…which creates American jobs. Supply and demand. When did local, state, and federal governments decide they can “do it better”?
When governments step in to ban any item, it is an affront to our very freedom, our sovereignty, and our economic well-being. Food bans based on “Animal Cruelty” and product bans based on “Save the Earth” campaigns appeal to a lot of people. They “sound” right because the words are cleverly-wrapped and well-marketed by PACs. The big picture that our rights are being stripped away one-by-one.
Those of us who speak out against government bans get accused of being “for” animal mistreatment or being “for” polluting the earth. This is not at all this case. This is about preserving the American way of life.
Go vote! And vote at your local, state, and national elections for the candidates who will protect our freedom. Voter apathy has let us down, and only voter interest will help us back up.
…and good for you Anne Marie for being one to speak out against the Animal Rights PACs.
Eh, it still doesn’t seem natural to me. Naturally, animals wouldn’t fatten themselves to that extent … if they did, we wouldn’t have to make them do it! Can you find a similar liver in a pre-migratory wild goose? If not, how can it be natural? And if so, why not hunt wild geese instead?
Plus it just seems gross to me. So there’s that. I hate the law regulating every-freaking-thing, but at the same time, you won’t see me buying foie gras, legal or not.
You can hunt wild geese and you will find some who have fatty livers:
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2010/11/ethical-foie-gras-no-force-feeding-necessary/66261/
You may think it’s “gross” but don’t knock it until you’ve tried it. My friend Kelly the Kitchen Kop thought it was totally gross and refused to eat it until she finally relented and now she thinks it’s the most delicious thing in the world. You don’t know what you are missing.
PS: More for me!
I read about a farmer who was able to trick his geese into over eating by hiding their food in the field. If they knew they were being fed at regular intervals, they wouldn’t over eat. But if they thought they had to forage for their food, they would gorge, as they do in the wild.
So the farmer hid the food and the gorging instinct kicked in for the geese. It was pretty cool, although it did seem labor intensive.
While hunting pre-migratory wild geese might work in theory, a lot of wild species are threatened/endangered and therefore protected.
I’ve never had foie gras, but I’d love to try it sometime. The force feeding does look cruel so I really appreciated the information on the videos. Not sure why I would assume that if it would hurt me, it would automatically hurt the animal.
Political correctness strikes again!
I have a friend who is (mostly) vegetarian. She claims that she doesn’t support cruelty to animals, yet feeds her dog kibble–are we saying that kibble is sustainably raised and NOT cruel to animals? people are getting confused about WHY they are protesting, and I appreciate the fact that this is about CHOICE and FREEDOM. I love foie gras but I o Lu eat it a couple times a year maybe.
Also, when I watched the clip with Anthony at the Hudson Valley farm, I admit, the force feeding creeped me out a bit. But after listening to the vet, the most wonderful word came to mind-anthropomorphise–giving human attribute to something, I.e., a GOOSE!. This is what many of us do, and it’s just plain nutty.
Also, are these activists (many whom eat eggs)buying pastured eggs? Because those organic eggs are NOT coming from happy chickens–maybe we should outlaw organic chicken eggs too!!!
This whole mess just tans my hide! There are other animal rights issues that need attention and banning foie gras is certainly not going to do anything to help end animal cruelty. Let’s focus on how beef and chicken farms operate shall we?
This is such a nourishing food. We have a local farm here that makes the most amazing foie gras and I am going to be deeply saddened when I can no longer partake (legally).
I guess foie gras is the new raw milk. Sheesh. When will we get it right?
It seems obvious to me that this is another attack on a traditional food. Not to mention one of the most mouth watering delicacies.
A hunter who knows how long ago (pre-Ancient Egyptian, apparently) got a goose with a fat liver, and said, my oh my, and then the human ingenuity kicked in and we figured how to repeat it.
The whole argument against foie gras is silly. Goose aren’t being harmed, the humans eating the goose liver aren’t being harmed, and there are only THREE artisan farms in the country. Contrast that with HOW MANY FACTORY FARMS?
Foie gras farms seem to be an easy target. They are small time operators. GO AFTER THE BIG GUYS, animal rights activists, and I’ll be right there with you.
Go after small artisan farmers who aren’t hurting anyone, and I’ll have nothing to do with you.
“there are only THREE artisan farms in the country. Contrast that with HOW MANY FACTORY FARMS?”
Absolutely!
They ARE going after factory farms AND they are going after small local farms. This isn’t a fight to protect the welfare of animals. The end game is to abolish farm animals. This is coming from a group of people who believe that humans do not have the right to eat animals. The farm source doesn’t matter…the agenda is that eating animals is cruel so the human raising of farm animals should be denied. They focus on the “animal cruelty” aspect so that we sympathize with them and vote to enact bans on meat-animals. Three steps later in this game of chess, they call check mate, and we’re all vegan.
I choose local fresh food, want animals to be raised humanely, and try to educate others by example, but I will defend any farmer’s right to raise animals for the purpose of human nutrition and sustinance. Any legislation which makes it much more costly for farmers to do their jobs (such as doubling cage space for factory chickens) is a double-edged sword.
Good point, Chris.
I will go vegan when hell freezes over.
We’re going to have to change our anthem lyrics from “the land of the free and the home of the brave.” to: the land of the deluded idealists and the home of the starving idiots.
Pisses me off. I signed.
why don’t these people focus on real, largescale animal cruelty of the factory farms and chicken farms where eggs come from? i mean really, this is a joke–are these animals vomiting the food back out? are they sick and dying? do they need antibiotics to make it to butchering day? are humans dying from eating “diseased” fatty duck livers? gimme a break…our food freedoms are slowly being taken away. i signed the petition and have never eaten foie gras.
@Elaine
Thanks for some refreshing critical thinking:
“i mean really, this is a joke–are these animals vomiting the food back out? are they sick and dying? do they need antibiotics to make it to butchering day? are humans dying from eating “diseased” fatty duck livers?”
Honestly. If you go to my Facebook page and read all the comments there, they keep blindly repeating the same thing, “It’s cruel! It’s painful! It’s inhumane.”
And yet they have no evidence whatsoever to back up the claims they are making.
Re Anthony Bourdain’s video
I’m an omnivore that appreciates that there are other issues in factory farming that are cruel and wherever possible I shop accordingly, BUT if I were trying to persuade people that foie gras was humane I sure wouldn’t do it like this!
Factual error is not a good way to start:
The species of duck that eat fish do not eat grain, and vice versa. No geese eat fish. Cormorants, loons, and grebes eat fish, but they are not geese or ducks and are not raised in farms.
It is true that geese and duck feed up before migrating, but that is not the same as force feeding. The video provides no information comparing the two and no time on how much more the ducks eat if they are being forced than if they were to decide for themselves how much they want to eat.
Also – penned ducks in a dark shed (which sure looked like a factory farm to me) won’t be migrating anytime soon – the comparison is not valid and undermines the integrity of the message.
It would also help if someone that didn’t have a vested interest in sustaining the foie gras market was commenting on whether or not the force feeding is cruel – a celebrity chef, a supplier of foie gras, and a vet that serves the foie gras farms all have a vested interest. This again brings the credibility of the whole video into question.
The deliciousness of foie gras is neither here nor there in a debate about cruelty or otherwise. Harping on about it only increases the sense that the video (and the whole argument) is more about maintaining a supply of something delicious than about the issue of cruelty.
Would you be persuaded by a cigar smoker oozing on about how awesome his Havana is that smoking cigars is not harmful?
I’m sure the State Government is not banning foie gras because they think it tastes gross.
Bottom line, do better marketing – or the vegans fascists will walk all over you, And that would definitely be shame.
Mike
Thanks, Mike, for making some good arguments. I’d like to counter them.
“The species of duck that eat fish do not eat grain, and vice versa. No geese eat fish. Cormorants, loons, and grebes eat fish, but they are not geese or ducks and are not raised in farms.”
The point of showing geese and ducks that eat fish is to show that waterfowl have a different kind of esophagus than humans have. They do not have a gag reflex. I believe that is why they showed the birds eating ducks in the videos.
“It is true that geese and duck feed up before migrating, but that is not the same as force feeding. The video provides no information comparing the two and no time on how much more the ducks eat if they are being forced than if they were to decide for themselves how much they want to eat.”
No it is not the same as force feeding and I don’t think anyone is saying that. I think they are trying to make the point that the force feeding does not hurt the birds.
Agreed, they may be getting more grain then they would normally get if they were overfeeding in the wild prior to migration. However, I don’t see why this is a problem. These ducks are being overfed for just 2 weeks, and then they are going to slaughter. If it doesn’t hurt them, why is it a problem?
“Also – penned ducks in a dark shed (which sure looked like a factory farm to me) won’t be migrating anytime soon – the comparison is not valid and undermines the integrity of the message.”
This is what a factory farm looks like for chickens:
http://advocacy.britannica.com/blog/advocacy/wp-content/uploads/chickens-11.jpg
Or this:
http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/20100519-chicken-factory-farm.jpg
I think the foie gras farm looked very different. Is it ideal? No.
But, as another commenter posted, “big organic” “free range” chicken houses are also not ideal. Should we ban them too?
“It would also help if someone that didn’t have a vested interest in sustaining the foie gras market was commenting on whether or not the force feeding is cruel – a celebrity chef, a supplier of foie gras, and a vet that serves the foie gras farms all have a vested interest. This again brings the credibility of the whole video into question.”
That’s a logical fallacy called the “vested interest fallacy”:
The vested interest fallacy occurs when a person argues that someone’s claim or recommended action is incorrect because the person is motivated by their interest in gaining something by it, with the implication that were it not for this vested interest then the person wouldn’t make the claim or recommend the action. Because this reasoning attacks the reasoner rather than the reasoning itself, it is a kind of Ad Hominem fallacy.
Example: According to Samantha we all should all vote for Anderson for Congress, but she’s a lobbyist in the pay of Anderson and will get a nice job in the capitol if he’s elected, so that convinces me to vote against Anderson.
This is fallacious reasoning by the speaker because whether the speaker should vote for Anderson ought to depend on Anderson’s qualifications, not on whether Samantha will or won’t get a nice job if he’s elected.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#VestedInterest
“The deliciousness of foie gras is neither here nor there in a debate about cruelty or otherwise. Harping on about it only increases the sense that the video (and the whole argument) is more about maintaining a supply of something delicious than about the issue of cruelty.
Would you be persuaded by a cigar smoker oozing on about how awesome his Havana is that smoking cigars is not harmful?
I’m sure the State Government is not banning foie gras because they think it tastes gross.”
I would never tell a cigar smoker that his cigars should be illegal. Nobody is forcing me to smoke cigars. I think people should have the freedom to smoke if they want to.
And I do believe deliciousness is a factor here. Foie gras is similar to art or music. It is of cultural and artistic importance. We need to keep these things alive. In a communist state, these things are irrelevant, but with freedom comes the right to express ourselves artistically and creatively.
“Bottom line, do better marketing – or the vegans fascists will walk all over you, And that would definitely be shame.”
I’m not doing “marketing” here. I’m presenting a logical argument.
I have a hard time believing that the vegan fascists will ever walk over anyone for very long. They’ll die out first. Most of them can’t even reproduce.
“I have a hard time believing that the vegan fascists will ever walk over anyone for very long. They’ll die out first. Most of them can’t even reproduce.”
How very compassionate, AnnMarie. This speaks of a very mean spirited, misguided, and angry individual.
I have very little compassion for people who harass and terrorize small farmers.
This ban would have never occurred if it weren’t for the activists who broke into the farm, vandalized their property (to the tune of $50K worth of damage) and secretly videotaped their children. (Source: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2245&dat=20031216&id=NWczAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TyEGAAAAIBAJ&pg=5432,5233010)
Regarding your name calling, please read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Calling me mean-spirited, misguided and angry doesn’t have anything to do with my argument. Try challenging the argument instead of name calling and trying to distract people. Present some real evidence.
I signed the petition. I agree this is about our rights to choose what we eat being taken from us.
Chicago tried that. Then they realized it was silly, so they un-banned it.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-foie-gras-ban-perspective,0,3199140.story
@Caroline
Yep. If we make enough noise and make our voices heard, hopefully we can do the same and repeal this ban.
Great article, Ann Marie. Curious – Where did you get your foie fix this weekend?
At Charlie Palmer’s and Pinot — both in South Coast Plaza Costa Mesa (where we were staying)
I’ve reversed my position on Foie Gras based on this video:
http://youtu.be/B-EDBdGU5fA Cruelty to these animals is as recent as December 2011.
1) Foie Gras may be a delicious delicacy, but that does not justify cruelty to animals.
2) I’ve read both for and against points. My main problem comes when people like AnnMarie who are concerned with their own health, ethical animal husbandry, and who disseminate that information to the public, condone this unnatural practice. It is not natural to eat a goose’s liver that is enlarged 10 times it’s normal size, just as it is unnatural to feed a cow corn or grow a chicken to slaughter weight in 8 weeks.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too, real foodies!
3) This reminds me again of the know your farmer fallacy. Just go visit, you will see! Well, farmers who want to do things unethically learn really quickly how to deceive their gullible audience.
1) That video is extremely deceptive. We don’t know where those different videos came from. They make it seem like they all came from Hudson Valley but there is no evidence of that.
2) Just because something is not “natural” does not mean it is bad or should be abolished. Are computers natural? No? Then what are you doing using one? Sorry, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. I’ll keep the foie gras and the computer, thanks.
3) I think it’s sad that you choose to attack small farmers, Kristen. I wish you would go pick a real bully to beat up on. Like factory farms.
I love my computer. I am sad that human beings are often exploited in making my apple computer products that I so love.
But we are not discussing computers and human slavery. We are discussing animal slavery, monoculture, and the health of the animal and the health of the product produced from that animal.
You made the claim that producing foie gras is not natural and therefore we should not eat it. I was countering that claim. If you think we should never do anything that is not natural, then we should not use computers.
I don’t eat foie gras but I support others right to. I signed the petition.
The end of the Anthony Bourdain video made me chuckle. “A study in France revealed that wild ducks are more stressed than ducks in foie gras farms.” Oh, France. How I love you France.
Haha!
The video Kristen posted is a good example of how the activist groups find the “worst of the worst” pictures and videos to show to legislators and to the public. Obviously that video is shameful and the USDA should do their job, write warnings, and then shut down offenders. But legislating a ban on foie gras is far different than asking the USDA to enforce existing standards.
Ann Marie, even your pictures of the chicken battery cages are the “worst of the worst”. While I certainly prefer to eat chickens which have walked on grass in the sunshine, pictures of clean factory farms do exist. Legislators (and the public) would hardly be swayed by photos of well-maintained factory farms would they?
Ann Marie wrote, “I have a hard time believing that the vegan fascists will ever walk over anyone for very long. ” They want us to believe it can never happen. They throw out the most offensive videos and pictures available, which are disgusting to us all. We vote on their side. State by state single-item bans get passed and large-scale mandates and restrictions get through Congress. One step at a time.
@Chris
It seems that Kristen loves nothing more than to badger and harass small farms. Her blog, Farm Muckraker is anti-small farm and full of wild allegations and heresay.
http://farmmuckraker.blogspot.com/
She calls it muckraking. I call it yellow journalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism
Chef Anthony Bourdain addresses this issue of showing the “worst of the worst” in this quote from Playboy magazine:
“I don’t know any chef who would buy the kind of foie gras that is produced the way they show in those PETA films. No restaurant I know of would buy the product of a stressed-out, terrified, abused goose or duck. That equals bad foie gras. But it’s a straw-man issue to start with, because every duck and goose raised for foie gras in this country, at least that I know of, lives a far more luxurious, happier, better life than any chicken ever killed for the Colonel or Popeye’s, as the PETA people well know. They’re picking on foie gras because it’s French, it’s expensive, most people haven’t had it and it looks ugly in the scary films they show.”
http://www.playboy.com/magazine/anthony-bourdain-interview/2
I did not mean to get into the subject matter of my blog here on this blog, AnnMarie. But since you brought it up:
-You and I have met each other in person and can agree to disagree about Healthy Family Farms, Rawesome and Organic Pastures Dairy Company. Two of the three entities I have written about are farms. Please admit that this is a personal matter for you and hence why you are attacking me.
-No, I do not love to attack small farms. That is why I source the entire amount of meat consumed by my family from them. I support small farms in my own small way: I feed my family their food.
-My blog is a BLOG! In the about me section of my blog, I never claim to be a journalist, muckraker, yellow journalist or otherwise. I am a mom voicing my opinion on the internet, nothing more, nothing less. If my voice is angry and full of vengeance, then that is how I was feeling at the time I wrote the blog post.
Getting back to the debate at hand:
I never took debate. I don’t care what a straw man argument or ad hoc or whatever it is you keep referencing. I know BS when I feel it. Watching this video helped change my mind as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-twjSsPQi0E
My response to the film I just linked to:
-If you need a full time sales and marketing director, and have the capability of providing foie gras for the entire country, then you are not a “small family farm”.
-If you have thousands of geese of one breed running around in an enclosed barn, with what appears to be no natural light, how is that any better than a organic CAFO style chicken house? How?
-Their geese that are intensely fed for two weeks are in pens. They once used to be in cages. Pens in a dark building? Are you joking? Aren’t you an advocate of pasture raised animals? How can this be monoculture environment be healthy for the birds?
How do they keep the animals healthy without giving them antibiotics?
-Please explain to me how eating a bloated fattened liver ten times it’s normal weight is healthy. This seems antithetical to everything you read and write about, AnnMarie.
If you need activists to come in and take video of your property and expose the harm you have done to animals in order to change the way you take care of your animals, then that, too, is a shame.
If the activists did make indirect threats and vandalize, then that is a shame and needs to be handled in a court of law.
Kristen
@Kristen
“I never took debate. I don’t care what a straw man argument or ad hoc or whatever it is you keep referencing. I know BS when I feel it.”
Haha that reminds me of the Caveman Lawyer skit on SNL.
Maybe you should take a logic class if you are going to be debating so much on the internet.
Please see this page: http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/
“A fallacy is a kind of error in reasoning… Fallacies should not be persuasive, but they often are. Fallacies may be created unintentionally, or they may be created intentionally in order to deceive other people.”
This one may be a little easier to digest: http://txcdk1.unt.edu/TCRR/bitstream/handle/2188/1524/argument_logical_fallacies_types.html?sequence=1
Would you like to respond to the many points I made above, or would you like to continue to educate me on the superiority of your brain and debate skills?
If you enjoy debating by going after me vulnerabilities, than go ahead. At least I admit to them and can admit when I am wrong.
I find logical fallacies really tiresome. Not trying to “educate you on the superiority of my brain”. Just trying to help make the internet a more logical place.
“You and I have met each other in person and can agree to disagree about Healthy Family Farms, Rawesome and Organic Pastures Dairy Company. Two of the three entities I have written about are farms. Please admit that this is a personal matter for you and hence why you are attacking me.”
Not attacking you and it’s not personal. Just making the point that you have a history of taking down small farmers on the internet.
“My blog is a BLOG! In the about me section of my blog, I never claim to be a journalist, muckraker, yellow journalist or otherwise. I am a mom voicing my opinion on the internet, nothing more, nothing less. If my voice is angry and full of vengeance, then that is how I was feeling at the time I wrote the blog post.”
If you are angry and full of vengeance, I think it’s very wise to step away from the publish button and do more research before you post hateful things on the internet.
“I never took debate. I don’t care what a straw man argument or ad hoc or whatever it is you keep referencing. I know BS when I feel it.”
Covered that.
“If you need a full time sales and marketing director, and have the capability of providing foie gras for the entire country, then you are not a “small family farm”.”
That’s not true. Organic Patures, Straus Dairy, Bellwether Farms, I could go on and on — they all have fulltime marketing and sales people and they are all small family farms.
“If you have thousands of geese of one breed running around in an enclosed barn, with what appears to be no natural light, how is that any better than a organic CAFO style chicken house? How?”
Well, it’s better than a CAFO chicken house but it’s probably equivalent to a “Big Organic” “free-range” chicken house such as Mary’s in CA or the like.
That said, not all foie gras farms are the same. I know Sonoma Foie Gras keeps their ducks outdoors for the first couple months (before the gavage). So they don’t run their farm this way.
It is Sonoma Foie Gras who are doing things the better way and yet they will be shut down in July due to this ban.
“Their geese that are intensely fed for two weeks are in pens. They once used to be in cages. Pens in a dark building? Are you joking? Aren’t you an advocate of pasture raised animals? How can this be monoculture environment be healthy for the birds?”
I do support pasture raised animals. That said, I also support foie gras production. Ideally foie gras production could be done primarily outdoors like Sonoma Foie Gras does it. It’s too bad they are being shut down.
If you want to make the argument that all “free range” (not pastured) operations should be banned, and therefore foie gras should be banned, that’s another argument. It is not my argument.
“How do they keep the animals healthy without giving them antibiotics?”
I don’t know. You would have to ask them.
“Please explain to me how eating a bloated fattened liver ten times it’s normal weight is healthy. This seems antithetical to everything you read and write about, AnnMarie.”
Liver is good for you. Fat is good for you. I don’t see a problem.
Is organic pastured liver better for you? Yes, most definitely. But that doesn’t mean that foie gras is bad for you. It’s just maybe not as good for you as other forms of liver.
However, regardless, that does not mean it should be BANNED. Should we also then ban factory farm liver because it is not as nutritionally dense as possible?
Please give me some evidence backing up your counter argument that foie gras should be banned. I have not seen any yet.
I raised some domestic geese last summer on my small hobby farm and we butchered at the end of the summer. We ate the livers and they were delicious. I have been thinking about this post a lot since yesterday and I just wanted to say a few things.
First off I want to acknowledge that I don’t think feeding these birds this way is any worse than me giving the thanksgiving turkey some bourbon a few hours before we butcher him, or using artificial lighting to keep hens laying in to the winter. We learn these tricks to help us along, but how do we draw a line? I sell eggs to fund my endeavors to be as self sustaining as possible but how do I keep myself from becoming like a CAFO in nature-cutting corners and cheating nature just to make it work better. I feed every animal I have as organically and locally as possible because what’s the point of all this hard work if I’m just feeding feed store crap. But I do cut some corners and this post has caused ment to think long and hard about why I cut the corners I do and why I’m okay with it. It all has to do with the integrity of the end product. I don’t think foie gras is as nutrient dense as what I raised last summer. It’s definitely a health food. But manually messing with the fatty acids in that manor is going to produce a product with the wrong ratios compared to a goose that eats what its body tells it to. Foie gras is a seasonal product and the nutrient density comes from respecting that seasonality, not mass producing it year round just because we figured out how. I didn’t have to force feed my geese at the end of the summer. They did it on their own and in the right amounts-natures perfect food. I also ate the meat and saved the extra fat which is another reason I wonder about the whole foie gras operation- feeding the extra grain also compromises the rest of the birds nutrient integrity all so that one small part will taste great. I just think this is something to consider when you want foie gras because it’s nutrient dense, it is, but not as healthy as it could be, and it carries some of the problems that CAFO cow meat does. Anytime you load an animal with omega-6, the ratios are going to be out of favor with the ideal.
However, because I like chicken eggs during the winter and an extra tasty bird for thanksgiving I could certainly not judge this practice and fully believe in the freedom to choose what to ingest and to feed my children. I disagree with the motivations behind this ban completely and am glad you are shedding light on it.
One other thing that caught my attention about your post was this- you used the ancient egyptians as an example of traditional food practices, you might want to reconsider that in the future. The ancient Egyptians were the first documented culture to start milling white flour and messing with their food integrity much like today’s American. Their royalty was riddled with modern diseases and I believe their dynasties died off because of such poor nutrition for so many generations. You can bet that it was only the royalty that ate that fake foie gras.
Hi, Helen,
Thanks for your very thoughtful comment.
I agree it is not all black and white like the vegans want to make it out to be. If they had their way, we would all be eating soy patties and drinking soy milk and all the domesticated animals would become extinct over time, and our land would turn into desert without their manure.
I included the bit about the Egyptians to show that this is a very ancient practice. Just because something is ancient does not mean it is good. However, I don’t think you can really compare foie gras to white flour.
I agree with you that the two foods cannot be compared, however, my point is that I wouldn’t trust an ancient egyptain to give me sound advice on nutrition just like I wouldn’t trust a mainstream food pyramid believing American. Both have shortsighted views and a serious lack of education that impairs their judgement.
@Helen
I agree. I don’t think it’s valid to go back thousands of years for nutrition advice. Which is one of my beefs about the Paleo movement. Haha — get it? Beefs?
Ann Marie wrote, “3) I think it’s sad that you choose to attack small farmers, Kristen. I wish you would go pick a real bully to beat up on. Like factory farms.”
I dare say that at least 90% of us who follow your blog are people who vote with our dollars to support small local and regional farms. We are priviledged to have access to, and the income for, the healthiest of foods.
It does disturb me to read comments about going after factory farms. More than 25% of Americans rely on factory-farmed meats because it is all they can afford to purchase. If those of us who vote for small farms with our purchasing dollars at the same time “go after” factory farms, we are essentially voting to price the poor out of meat for their tables. In other words, “Let THEM be vegan” when they can no longer get cheap, though inferior, meat.
Once their are enough small local farmers to support affordable production of farm animals for the majority of Americans, then more people will naturally gravitate toward purchasing local healthy foods. Right now, small farmers only produce enough to support a small percentage of Americans.
I say we stand behind meat farmers of all sizes, vote with our dollars for the best meat we can afford, and broadly stamp out vegan-activist anti-meat policies.
Well said, Chris, I can agree with you on that point 100%.
I’d like to add:
Anytime you put animals in a monoculture and factory like assembly and mechanization for mass production and consumption, it is not natural or healthy for man or animal.
Helen made this arguement, above, which is what I was trying to get at about this not being a healthy food to eat:
“I don’t think foie gras is as nutrient dense as what I raised last summer. It’s definitely a health food. But manually messing with the fatty acids in that manor is going to produce a product with the wrong ratios compared to a goose that eats what its body tells it to. Foie gras is a seasonal product and the nutrient density comes from respecting that seasonality, not mass producing it year round just because we figured out how. I didn’t have to force feed my geese at the end of the summer. They did it on their own and in the right amounts-natures perfect food. I also ate the meat and saved the extra fat which is another reason I wonder about the whole foie gras operation- feeding the extra grain also compromises the rest of the birds nutrient integrity all so that one small part will taste great. I just think this is something to consider when you want foie gras because it’s nutrient dense, it is, but not as healthy as it could be, and it carries some of the problems that CAFO cow meat does. Anytime you load an animal with omega-6, the ratios are going to be out of favor with the ideal.”
Factory farmed meats are not natural, but I believe that there are amino acids in meat (whether natural or unnatural) which are required for human health and which cannot be obtained from a vegan diet. All meat eaters probably agree with that.
I just don’t want to see the poor get priced out of the meat market entirely due to government-imposed restrictions on meat producers.
Chris, I got you. I was trying to explain why mass produced Foie Gras seems unnatural and unhealthy to me. Helen nailed it.
As for CAFOs and feeding poor people, I am not educated there. I feel feeding my family healthy meat is a luxury and that in of itself is SAD.
But do you really think it is possible for a small movement like ours to change the literal landscape of our country and eliminate factory farming… by merely voting with our dollars? I am not so sure…given the corporate giants that run things that are in bed with our government officials.
Is there no room for democratic regulation of CAFOs?
@Kristen
“But do you really think it is possible for a small movement like ours to change the literal landscape of our country and eliminate factory farming… by merely voting with our dollars? I am not so sure…given the corporate giants that run things that are in bed with our government officials. ”
Absolutely. Look what happened to Posilac. Or GMOs in Europe. Consumer pressure killed them.
Hopefully we Locavores will buy enough local foods to create demand for more local farms, more local foods, more general health. That is what brings the price down in a free-market economy and makes products more affordable and available to everyone.
Government interference always costs more and creates a kind of pseudo-inflation in the areas being regulated. When we vote with our dollars, this inflation does not occur. When we vote to regulate, mandate, and restrict through government policies, we often are catering to the agenda of special interests and not the interests of the general citizenship.
The CAFOs are regulated by the USDA and FSIS today. If horrible conditions exist on individual farms, then the USDA is not adequately doing thier job. Instead of supporting additional farm legislation (targeted at any size farm) we should insist that the FSIS is adequately enforcing existing food safety and sanitation laws. And yes, we “the informed” (and privileged) know that the USDA/FSIS is currently “ok” with some practices which don’t produce the healthiest end-product. I guess the question is “How do you feed 313 million people?” The vegan answer is to reduce factory farms and eat plants. My answer is that factory farms are a necessary evil until small farms can come up with enough supply to meet (“meat”) demand.
If you consider yourself a locavore than you wouldn’t eat Foie Gras unless it was wild, i.e. provided by a hunter who killed a wild goose when they naturally fatten their livers for the winter. Just sayin’…
a local hunter, that is.
If I were an extreme Locavore, I would hunt down, trap, kill and eat my free-range, backyard squirrels. …mmmm….perhaps fry their livers with some fava beans and a nice chianti. : )
I haven’t tried foie gras, but will try it if I see it offered locally.
I am a meat-eater first, and a Locavore as long as I can afford to be one.
It’s not so cut and dry, because if the price of meat starts going up, people along the chain will make more money, or they might decide to raise their own food to avoid the store prices. It doesn’t necessarily price poor people out of meat.
Tell that to retired senior citizens who are trying to live on Social Security income around $700 per month. : )
@Chris
I was just trying to say that if Kristen wants to spend her time attacking farms, why not go after the bigger farms who are not sustainable?
I think it would be better to just support ALL farms but spend our dollars, as much as we can, with the sustainable ones. I don’t know why she wants to attack people in the first place.
“I say we stand behind meat farmers of all sizes, vote with our dollars for the best meat we can afford, and broadly stamp out vegan-activist anti-meat policies.”
Well said, and I concur.
Yes, I realized your point Ann Marie. : )
You knew this foie gras topic might open up a can of worms, but did you think it would be a huge can? The topic is definitely not just chopped liver.
I’m happy to see intelligent debate, discussion and discourse taking place here. Good job!
@Chris
Yes, people always complain when I write ANYTHING about foie gras. Even just a quick mention of what I ate on Facebook will set it off.
I think it’s because it is emotional for them. They throw logic out the window and get caught up with anthropomorphizing the geese and ducks.
It is a pleasure commenting back and forth with you. Thanks so much for your thoughtful contributions.
Well, it’s emotional for me too and my views are perhaps extreme pro-meat, just as much as Animal Rights Activists are extreme anti-meat.
If nothing else, I’ll vote against any meat legislation proposed by vegan groups purely on the pricipal or basic question, “Why are local, state, and federal meat laws these days being largely developed and dictated by vegan PACs?”
Ok, call me a rebel. : )
AnnMarie,
“I was just trying to say that if Kristen wants to spend her time attacking farms, why not go after the bigger farms who are not sustainable?”
Please stop saying that I attack farms. I don’t enjoy it attacking farmers or farms.
If you don’t enjoy it, why do you do it?
I don’t think what Kristen is doing on her blog is attacking small farms. Like every system, people need to be held accountable–even small farms. And from I read briefly on her blog some of the practices taking place with Healthy Family Farms and Rawesome were questionable. I don’t think that’s wrong to expose. I’d be pretty upset if I found out the food I was going out my way to source (and paying a premium for) was not the quality it claimed to be. From what she posted, the so-called pastured, organic eggs tested to have mercury, uranium and other ingredients that indicated the eggs were not what they were supposed to be. If what she is saying is true, then I commend her for putting it out there.
@Nicole
“Like every system, people need to be held accountable–even small farms.”
I agree. But you need to back up any allegations with hard evidence.
“From what she posted, the so-called pastured, organic eggs tested to have mercury, uranium and other ingredients that indicated the eggs were not what they were supposed to be. If what she is saying is true, then I commend her for putting it out there.”
It is not true.
If you are referring to this post, http://farmmuckraker.blogspot.com/2011/08/egg-cellent-questions.html the only “proof” Kristen has is what Aajonus Vonderplanitz wrote on a website he posted. He was court-ordered to take that site down. Healthy Family Farms should have slapped him with a libel suit.
This is what I mean by yellow journalism, sensationalist stories based on unfounded allegations and heresay. No real facts.
I’ve heard this “court ordered” bit for over a year and yet the website is still there. The court order may be as real as OPDC’s cows are grass fed, speaking of yellow journalism. Perhaps some of the LA-connected people could post the actual court order so that we can see the evidence.
BTW, Palmer did admit to outsourcing eggs for about six months. That is not a point in question.
Amanda
@Amanda
Yes he was court-ordered to take it down. He did and then he took the content and put up a different website.
I don’t have the court order.
Get the court order and post it here for us.
Why don’t you do that, Amanda?
I assume you are saying that you haven’t actually seen the document?
I don’t understand why LA WAPF hasn’t made it available and yet seems to cite it widely. I’d like to see it before I tell people all about it. You were LA WAPF chapter leader at the time, this should be simple for you to provide to us here.
Ann Marie — I thought I must have confused everything here but I re-read this and see that you refute Kristen’s evidence and you do so by citing a court document. You have mentioned “yellow journalism” here and appear to like finding logical fallacies. You are now suggesting that it is *my* responsibility to find the evidence for *your* argument. Strange.
If I find the document, will you do a blog post about it? I’d really like to hear more from the people who were in the trenches when this happened.
I happen to think that this case will hurt the movement, but I would be pleased to be proved wrong.
Amanda
Amanda, it’s curious how you, like Kristen, always show up commenting when a small farm is being dragged through the dirt.
I honestly haven’t had time to pursue this. I’m busy trying to make a living and we just moved out of the state.
I have spoken to Victoria and Sharon in depth about this issue with Aajonus and I’m convinced based on the information they presented to me, that his information is not accurate.
If I had written a blog post about it, which I was planning to do, I would share all that info that I got from Sharon and Victoria. I decided not to write a blog post about it after Sharon went to jail last year. I’ll speak to Victoria and see if she (and the lawyers) think it is wise to post.
I don’t know why he has not taken the website down yet.
Fraud comes in all sizes. I am consistently anti-fraud.
It sounds like you refute the Vonderplanitz information based on a document you haven’t seen. The main evidence in support of Palmer in the blogosphere is this court document. I guess we should give it an eyeball.
@Amanda Rose
“It sounds like you refute the Vonderplanitz information based on a document you haven’t seen. The main evidence in support of Palmer in the blogosphere is this court document. I guess we should give it an eyeball.”
No, you are incorrect. I refute his info based on a heap of other evidence provided to me by Victoria and Sharon. I have not posted about it yet.
Again, Sharon is not on trial by the blogosphere. She is innocent until proven guilty.
If you care to see this post, at the bottom are the links to my explanation as a three part series where I disclosed what I had discovered last fall. (including pictures. I also have a receipt but I am not at liberty to share that document publicly)
My point in writing was because I went to my WAPF leadership at the time, Ann Marie here and Victoria Bloch, and both supported Sharon Palmer unequivocally. I felt like my voice, and the voice of people at farmers markets who felt they may have been defrauded, needed to be heard.
http://farmmuckraker.blogspot.com/2012/03/im-basically-outraged-and-why-you.html?m=1
My plan is to write a farmers market consumer guide for buying meat and eggs. First up is chicken.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to express my opinion here, AnnMarie. I did not mean to bring our past history or my blog into this discussion.
“It’s like if you took kimchi away from the Korean people”
Chef Ludo Lefebvre
No, it’s like if you took shark fin soup away from the Chinese people. There doesn’t seem to be any scientific research showing that the napa cabbage experiences any health issues or discomfort as a result of making kimchi.
I personally enjoy foie gras, but can see why it is banned when manufactured through the force-feeding of birds. The State of California has given manufacturers 7 years to come up with an alternative means of creating the dish, so I fail to see why the villagers have assembled with their pitchforks and torches now.
When you state in your article “…I won’t stop writing about foie gras, because I adore it. Foie gras is one of my very favorite foods” you make it abundantly clear why you disagree with the law, but it doesn’t change the fact that the law will take effect, or the possibility that it does cause distress to the birds that are artificially force-fed.
Don’t get me wrong – I tend to side with those stating that the powers that be shouldn’t restrict what we eat, but then I’d be OK with California allowing the sale of farm-raised whale, horse or even dog meat with the animal raised and slaughtered humanely…. I just have to wonder if the chefs arguing against the ban have a vested interest (e.g., make a decent living cooking with foie gras)
“The State of California has given manufacturers 7 years to come up with an alternative means of creating the dish, so I fail to see why the villagers have assembled with their pitchforks and torches now.”
These laws get passed largely without any public visibility or media exposure until after they pass and it’s all over but the crying. For the small percentage of the people watching the laws during development, there is some combination of general apathy and disbelief, “This law sounds so crazy, it can’t possibly pass, so I don’t need to write my congressmen at urge them to vote against passage.”
Until Americans become more vocal, quit watching reality TV and start watching reality, then the desires of the PACs will continue to run over the desires of the people.
I would never take the attitude of not speaking out with incredulity as the reason; I have every reason to believe the recent shark fin ban will be enacted without fanfare, despite mild opposition (shark fin soup is not as popular with high-end celebrity chefs as foie gras is). I agree with you, and have found the State of California to be extremely restrictive when it comes to meat – even though the Federal government has lifted the horse slaughterhouse ban, California still strictly forbids the sale, purchase, serving or eating of horse meat. Shame for us omnivores…
Chris said:
“These laws get passed largely without any public visibility or media exposure until after they pass and it’s all over but the crying. For the small percentage of the people watching the laws during development, there is some combination of general apathy and disbelief, “This law sounds so crazy, it can’t possibly pass, so I don’t need to write my congressmen at urge them to vote against passage.”
I’ve read the comments on here, and it’s fine that everyone has their opinions. But I had to reply to this comment because of the horrific attempt at justifying why the foie gras ban is coming into effect. I will try to do it very succinctly below:
The ban was a BALLOT INITIATIVE, voted on by citizens of California. There were multi-million dollar campaigns on BOTH sides regarding the issue of foie gras. The initiative passed with one of the highest all-time percentages of votes for banning this cruel practice.
In the future, please educate yourself before making weak, generalized statements for why things happen.
Sincerely, a vegan who knows something
Dear Vegan “Who Knows Something”
The Foie Gras ban was NOT a ballot initiative, I would have remembered. A quick internet search shows that it started in the California State Senate as S.B. 1520
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=200320040SB1520 and was signed into law by Arnold S. in 2004.
I think you forgot to take your B12 vitamins before posting.
There are much more serious things that need attention than what food a person chooses. They tried to ban over-easy and sunny side up eggs back East when a salmonella outbreak happened, but it didn’t last when the mayor or governor went to a dinner and ordered over easy eggs. It is like any other food, know your source and support those doing the right thing.
When there are no more starving homeless children … then maybe they can talk to me. Animal rights over human rights never made sense to me.
@DavetteB
I agree. I can’t believe PETA is a $30 million dollar organization. What we could do with that money.
Hi Anne Marie
First, thanks for your post. I am French born and raised, loved foie gras and dropped it for years because I thought the animal were suffering. With some of your points you have shown that indeed they are not so I’m willing to give it another try.
However, speaking for myself here, I don’t see why I should compromise with my standards when it comes to meat. I only eat meat that is pasture fed and from local responsible producers. I would like the same for foie gras so are you aware of any “grass-fed” foie gras or is Sonoma the closest on the market?
If I may say so – and this is not a judgment or attack but an observation that might explain some comments – your logic in this post is valid – there is no cruelty involved and it should not be banned before factory farming. But you also make other points that could read like you have double standards when it comes to foie gras – accepting somehow a production which is average in term of factory and animal conditions – and that you do so because ” you adore foie gras and it is one of your very favorite foods”. By reading your post and comments I had the feeling that you were ok with lowering your criteria on pasture fed meat for foie gras because it tastes so good. Which is ok – everyone its own – but merely an observation of why some people get back at you with the way your phrased this issue maybe.
“I only eat meat that is pasture fed and from local responsible producers. I would like the same for foie gras so are you aware of any “grass-fed” foie gras or is Sonoma the closest on the market?”
Sonoma is the closest thing. Hudson Valley is not pastured; they are “free-range” (more like “big organic”). This is why it is especially sad that this ban will force Sonoma to shut down.
I imagine there are many pastured organic foie gras farms in France. I need to take a trip to research it.
“But you also make other points that could read like you have double standards when it comes to foie gras – accepting somehow a production which is average in term of factory and animal conditions – and that you do so because ” you adore foie gras and it is one of your very favorite foods”. By reading your post and comments I had the feeling that you were ok with lowering your criteria on pasture fed meat for foie gras because it tastes so good. Which is ok – everyone its own – but merely an observation of why some people get back at you with the way your phrased this issue maybe.”
I am more like Chris who posted above. I eat meat that is not grass-fed quite often. What I buy and cook with in my house is mostly pastured (I will buy “free-range/big organic” chicken or conventional beef if that is all that I can find at the time). Normally I keep a chest freezer full of pastured meat but since I moved to Vegas I don’t have a chest freezer (will be getting one when we move from the condo to a house).
When I eat out, I don’t worry about it. I do go to better restaurants where they make everything from scratch but I do not expect that everything should be organic and pasture raised. And when I eat foie gras it is always in a restaurant unless I order a terrine. I do plan to make it at home one of these days soon.
HSUS is even more sinister than PETA, because their message is polished, covert and not so in-your-face. They took in just under $150 million in donations in 2010 and spent a considerable amount on anti-agricultural political activism.
Chris thanks for letting us know that. I’ve made donations before but then became a bit suspicious with their heavy promoting of meat free monday and of course promotion of soy. I rather give to local refuge and Compassion in world farming nowadays.
HSUS actually “looks like” animal lovers, but here are some quotes:
Quotes from HSUS leaders before they joined HSUS:
“We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding …One generation and out. We have no problems with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding.” – CEO Wayne Pacelle, as reported in Animal People News, May1993
“I don’t want to see another cat or dog born.” – CEO Wayne Pacelle in Bloodties, 1994
“Eating meat causes animal cruelty.” – HSUS senior campaigner Paul Shapiro, in a 2003 speech
“Nothing is more important than promoting veganism.” HSUS senior campaigner Paul Shapiro, at the 2004 National Student Animal Rights Conference
Source: Humanewatch.org
Here’s an interesting recent article about PETA
“The organization, which claims to be dedicated to the cause of animal rights, can’t explain why its adoption rate is only 2.5 percent for dogs.” (They euthanize the rest)
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/03/petas-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-history-of-killing-animals/254130/
My eyes were opened about PETA/HSUS’s ulterior motives in 2007 when I joined a pure-breed dog forum. I had commented about the terrible conditions of puppy mills and was surprised to hear the AKC breeders of top-line show competition dogs defend anyone’s right to breed companion pets. It took me awhile to “get it” that these organizations really would like to see all farm animals and domestic pets go extinct, the sooner the better.
HSUS has a bill in legislation now, the “Puppy Uniform Protection and Safety Act” which is purportedly against puppy mills. Interestingly enough, organized opponents of the bill are largely the AKC top-line breeding clubs. Remember the HSUS message, “Don’t buy from breeders, and only adopt spayed an neutered pets from shelters.” (…following that logic, dogs and cats would be extinct in one generation…)
AM. Someone just blew my mind away. Assume nothing. I am going to get the documents and email them to you and post them on my blog. Thanks for the push to check the facts. Assume nothing!
This comment is not meant to reflect an opinion in either direction, as I do not have one yet. I’m just confused: If a duck’s air hole starts in it’s tongue, where do its nostrils connect? The diagram in the video didn’t explain how all that was connected, and all I found was this on google, but it doesn’t explain how it relates to the digestive system, if at all: http://www.science-art.com/image/?id=1583&pagename=Duck_Respiratory_System
Any insight is appreciated.
I have never had foie gras, but am now willing to try it if it is available. I am aware that radical vegans have a disturbing agenda, but do not think they will take over the world – for one thing, they would die out too quickly if they practiced what they preached! I had thought that the production of foie gras was cruel for the goose, but I do not think it has to be anymore, now that I’ve seen the videos. The birds sure looked happy! Although . . . wouldn’t it be theoretically possible to do the gavage AND let them graze on pasture? (geese are grass eaters mostly, but ducks are omnivorous). But YAY for the local artisans!
I read this article yesterday and have pondered it for quite a while. I am a supporter of food freedom, but I really cannot support the force-feeding of animals to produce an unnaturally large liver. I also cannot imagine eating a liver that is considered diseased and was produced by such unnatural methods.
Whether or not it should be illegal is another topic, but I find it to be unethical. It reminds me of injecting cows with recumbent bovine growth hormone to produce massive amounts of milk. I don’t like this practice for many obvious reasons.
While I don’t agree on this particular issue, I do appreciate your blog and the effort you make to educate the public about the benefits of nourishing, traditional foods.
The suggestion that the ducks and geese are abused or mistreated is absolutely misinformation. I love foie gras and have hosted several dinners at ‘A List’ restaurants during the past year. We will continue doing so after the ban and there’s not a damn thing anyone can do about it. The last dinner we hosted in Carmel-by-the-Sea was sold out. We even invited PETA to the dinner! If you’re in the Carmel/Monterey area there will be a foie gras dinner on March 21 at Andre’s Bouchee – https://www.facebook.com/events/335381176508765/
“The suggestion that the ducks and geese are abused or mistreated is absolutely misinformation.”
I’m not sure it’s an issue of misinformation as much as a judgement call. The two sides have differing opinion on whether inserting a tube into a waterfowl’s esophagus for the purpose of force-feeding them is cruel or not. One side says they’re predisposed to overeat and their digestive system is built differently than other animals; the other states that they are overfed more than they could possibly naturally eat and their liver becomes abnormally enlarged (“diseased”?).
The sides seem to be separated into two camps – people who love to eat fois gras (such as yourself, Cheeseslave and me), chefs who feature it prominently on their menu or those who produce it; and animal rights organizations or people who sympathize with the animals, having seen video and associating a tube going down a goose’s throat with one going down theirs.
I absolutely see both sides, but to argue for by saying the animals are not in any distress or discomfort, or against by stating that eating animals in any fashion is inherently cruel are both biased. No easy answer here, but if the State assembly has passed legislation banning foie gras manufactured through the force-feeding waterfowl, the recourse is to obey the law or to lobby to have the law overturned. Arguing about it doesn’t really change anything.
“Forcing Feeding” is not what actually happens. They line up for their Extra Food and have to be shooed away to make room for the next.
We will not “obey the law” as you suggest. We will continue to eat foie gras while lobbying to overturn it. As a protest we will defy the law and promote the protest dinners as well.
Dan, you are awesome!
Great! Ok, signup on our email list at http://www.tudorwines.com and “Like” our FB page at https://www.facebook.com/pages/Tudor-Wines/45747613928
Cheers!
Dan
Civil disobedience at work! I doubt there’s any legal risk to continue eating it – I’m sure whatever fines that would be levied would be against the manufacturer anyway (I doubt there’s a foie gras police that will be throwing people in jail)
By the way, I agree “force feeding” may not be a good term – the owners of the Golden Corral don’t force their customers to visit the buffet eight times….
Just a quick “Wiki” check on the background of the California foie gras law reveals:
“SB 1520 was introduced in the California legislature on February 19, 2004 by then-Senate President Pro-Tem John Burton at the request of a coalition of animal protection organizations: Viva!USA, Farm Sanctuary, Los Angeles Lawyers for Animals, and the Association of Veterinarians for Animal Rights.
For those of you who don’t think PETA/HSUS and other animal rights group can make a vegan-impact on what we Americans are “allowed” to eat, I suggest staying on top of food laws before they get passed and write letters to congressmen.
We’ve currently got a federal “egg laying hen” bill up for grabs sponsored by HSUS/UEP, which could adversely affect egg production on all levels from the small farmer to the large production providers. UEP represents the egg industry, so the HSUS/UEP “partnership” seems strange. UEP made the agreement with their arm twisted behind their back – to stop HSUS from going state to state to state legislating “chicken rights”.
Congrats Dan on your protest dinners. It is beautiful that you’re inviting PETA. I’d love to hear their RSVP. : )
PETA was too CHICKEN to show up ; )
Haha! Go figure. : )
Don’t you just love “Lawyers for Animals”? I can picture a goat on the witness stand – Judge: “Hey, kid, was Farmer Brown treating you well?” Goat: “Naaaaaaaaaaah”
Some would say that our humor has run “a fowl”.
I wish I could attend! How do I sign up to be notified about future events?
Gov’t needs to GET OUT of the business of regulating what we eat…of stealing our fundamental human right to nourishment and gastronomy.
On our little “homestead” experiment, we were raising ducks (until a coyote ravaged them…SOB!!!) for eggs and meat. Duck fat is incredible, as is duck liver, duck eggs and duck meat. When we get back into the duck business, we will be making our own foie gras…and we’ll push it on anyone who will open their mouths!!
LOL
If the Vegans voice can be so influencial that they put a ban on a traditional food…Real foodies can definitely make a difference!
http://new.evite.com/?utm_source=other_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=text&utm_campaign=host_conf#view_invite:eid=02E1AAQZXGK5ZYAUAEPBUO6V4F22RQ
Chef Patrick Farjas
(650) 343 – 0907 http://www.daybreakgourmet.com
Academie Culinaire de France North America Delegation and Maitres Cuisiniers De France
We are hosting yet another foie gras wine dinner on the Monterey Peninsula. This one is going to be on July 1st as a special added gesture to the misguided anti-foie gras activists! The dinner will be a “private party”. Contact me at dantudor@tudorwines.com if you are interested in attending.
I urge you and to fully investigate the production methods of Foie gras in this country. I am a Weston Price advocate, eating a traditional diet including grass fed meats. I also trained as a Veterinarian at Cornell University and also studied biology and animal sciences as an undergraduate at Cornell. And yet I am happy to see this ban come into play. The operators of large Foie gras operations typically hire illegal immigrants or seasonal-type workers with no aptitude for animals and no training. They use large gas-nozzle type devices to literally force food down the ducks’ throats. They often do this while sitting on the duck’s back because the duck is trying to escape. Now, the liver you are eating is actually diseases from being overfed. I know that other animals (cats,dogs, humans) that have diseased liver like this have a lot of pain. These animals do not eat – they are too sick to eat. Imagine a grown man with a leg thrown over your body while your grossly enlarged liver is painful and already encroaching on your lungs and other abdominal organs. Anyway, I could go on but you get the point. Yes, I think we should eat a diet appropriate to our ancestors and I strongly believe in traditional, whole foods diet. Yet, I also believe that we must have reverence for all animals giving their lives for us. We must treat these animals with respect and care because it is our duty to do so. The CA legislature gave the foie gras companies 8 years to come up with a humane method of producing foie gras and they were not able to do this. Therefore, I am very thankful for the lawmakers intervention and I do hope that it sends a message to all foie gras producers and consumers. Thank you for considering this and please, I do urge you to look into this issue for yourself and visit a few CA foie gras producers. Perhaps there are some small producers that are humane, but it is my understanding that the vast majority are factory farms like the rest. Jennifer R. Morin BS, DVM
I’d like to thank you for the efforts you have put in writing this blog. I’m hoping to see the same high-grade content by you later on as well.
In truth, your creative writing abilities has motivated me to get my own blog now
This is a topic that’s near to my heart… Thank you! Where are your contact details though?
Does your site have a contact page? I’m having problems locating it but, I’d like
to shoot you an email. I’ve got some recommendations for your blog you might be interested in hearing. Either way, great blog and I look forward to seeing it develop over time.
Hello, i think that i saw you visited my website thus i came to return the favor.
I’m attempting to find things to improve my site!I suppose its ok to use a few of your ideas!!
I recently had much first experience with foie gras. I love it. Where do you get yours from? Is it still not able to be delivered to CA? I live in MN, so I think we can still have it delivered here. I was looking on line and was having difficulty finding information on whether the foie gras was organic,non-GMO.
Maybe because Victoria (who is the only LA WAPF chapter leader; I am in Las Vegas now) has been just a tad busy being hauled off to jail herself.
I’m extremely busy myself, as you probably know.
If it’s important to you, please look into it and share with us what you find.
The documents as to whether Aajanus’ website doesn’t matter much to AnnMarie. You used your “Logical fallacy no no” when talking about him with me: ad hominen. See, I learn quickly! You said that he is basically crazy. He is nuts so basically we shouldn’t believe what he wrote on his website. I don’t have any proof of that but in my head I can see how fanatical you were about how crazy he was.
Your ad hominen arguement didn’t cut it for me. Nor did your defense of Palmer at all cost because ‘we should support ALL small Farmers and I have been to her farm myself and I have met her’ line of reasoning. Neither did Victoria, who worked for Sharon Palmer, with her apologist, ‘well she apologized for the outsourcing that ONE TIME!’. None of it quenched my questions.
Call me perfectionistic but when I pay above average prices for meat and eggs I want a guarantee that what I am purchasing is what is marketed and advertised. Victoria was their main marketeer and marketer, btw.
All this is neither here nor there in reality though. Palmer is facing serious charges and we shall see what the evidence shows. I’m a lot more patient on this subject than I used to be because of the feedback I have received from various former customers, market managers, and even a reporter. Time will tell the whole story. If not, maybe I’ll be compelled to write a real investigative journalist piece about it instead of just an angry blog. Imagine that!
Also there was one time Sharon told her associates that she was going to sue me for slander. So excuse Amanda if she doesn’t quite believe you about the legal actions against Aajanus’ website. There seems to be a whole lot of legal talk surrounding Ms. Palmer.
@Kristen
“The documents as to whether Aajanus’ website doesn’t matter much to AnnMarie. You used your “Logical fallacy no no” when talking about him with me: ad hominen. See, I learn quickly! You said that he is basically crazy. He is nuts so basically we shouldn’t believe what he wrote on his website. I don’t have any proof of that but in my head I can see how fanatical you were about how crazy he was.”
No, I’m not making a logical fallacy, Kristen. Aajonus’ “facts” are nothing but lies. If I said, “Aajonus is a liar so anything he says can’t be trusted,” that would be a logical fallacy. But I did not say that. I’m saying his information is false.
“Your ad hominen arguement didn’t cut it for me.”
It’s ad hominem, not ad hominen.
“Nor did your defense of Palmer at all cost because ‘we should support ALL small Farmers and I have been to her farm myself and I have met her’ line of reasoning. Neither did Victoria, who worked for Sharon Palmer, with her apologist, ‘well she apologized for the outsourcing that ONE TIME!’. None of it quenched my questions.
Call me perfectionistic but when I pay above average prices for meat and eggs I want a guarantee that what I am purchasing is what is marketed and advertised. Victoria was their main marketeer and marketer, btw.
All this is neither here nor there in reality though. Palmer is facing serious charges and we shall see what the evidence shows. I’m a lot more patient on this subject than I used to be because of the feedback I have received from various former customers, market managers, and even a reporter. Time will tell the whole story. If not, maybe I’ll be compelled to write a real investigative journalist piece about it instead of just an angry blog. Imagine that!”
She is INNOCENT until proven guilty, Kristen. Or did you forget that?
That is what I hate about your website. You write things that position these farmers as being guilty, when she has not yet been tried in a court of law. We are not the jury here on the internet. Let the woman have her day in court.
“There seems to be a whole lot of legal talk surrounding Ms. Palmer.”
There you go with another logical fallacy! This one’s called the Hasty Conclusion or Jumping to a Conclusion.
Just because there is legal talk surrounding her, does not mean she is guilty of anything.
INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty. And that means proven guilty by a court of law. Not by you and your blog.
“Where there’s smoke, there’s fire (also Hasty Conclusion, Jumping to a Conclusion). The dangerous fallacy of quickly drawing a conclusion and/or taking action without sufficient evidence. E.g., “My neighbor Jaminder Singh wears a long beard and a turban and speaks a funny language. Where there’s smoke there’s fire. This is war, our country is in danger, and that’s all the evidence we need to string him up!’” A variety of the “Just in Case” fallacy.”
http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/engl1311/fallacies.htm
Oh, and I haven’t read all the posts on your blog but I imagine she could probably sue you for libel (slander is spoken; libel is written). I guess she’s been a little busy trying to stay out of jail.
I didn’t even realize you all were talking about this. UNLV has a good logic program and would suggest reading the court document itself is in order here. I’m glad Kristen’s making progress on the document.
I think AnnMarie could teach that UNLV class, Amanda, because she is pretty obsessed with logical fallacies. In fact so much so that she is interesting in pointing out how bad my logic and debate skills but doesn’t have too much to add to the actual debate. I also know on an emotional level she cares so much about this case because her personal feelings and attachments are wrapped up with defending her friend Victoria Bloch.
@Kristen
“I think AnnMarie could teach that UNLV class, Amanda, because she is pretty obsessed with logical fallacies. In fact so much so that she is interested in pointing out how bad my logic and debate skills but doesn’t have too much to add to the actual debate. I also know on an emotional level she cares so much about this case because her personal feelings and attachments are wrapped up with defending her friend Victoria Bloch.”
I’m pointing out that you are being illogical in the hopes that you will learn some logic and stop spreading so many lies.
My relationship with Victoria or anyone else has nothing to do with my position on anything. I’m capable of making rational decisions based on logic, not emotion. That is just conjecture on your part and you have no evidence for it. (Once again, complete and total lack of logic.)
One more comment like this Kristen and I’m going to ban you from this site.
Using your line of reasoning AnnMarie:
“No, I’m not making a logical fallacy, Kristen. Aajonus’ “facts” are nothing but lies”.
Where is YOUR EVIDENCE to back that up? Because I never heard any.
I heard apologies for Sharon outsourcing eggs that “one time” at Rawesome.
Also, Larry Otting is a mystery to me still but I do know he has deep pockets and (he funded the likes of Organic Pastures in the beginning and it seems he likes to support small farms get their feet off the ground. Mark calls him a friend on TCP blog and even nicknames him “Lucky Larry”) Ask Victoria why would he have a libel/slander suit AGAINST Palmer? Maybe call your friend Mark and see what he thinks of Sharon Palmer now.
@Kristen
“Where is YOUR EVIDENCE to back that up? Because I never heard any.”
I haven’t posted it yet Kristen.
Please stop spreading this gossip in the comments on my blog.
@Kristen You know what. You caught me on a bad day. I’ve been overly nice for a long time but I’ve had it.
You’re done.
I don’t have to tolerate harassment on my own blog.
You’re officially banned from my blog comments and my Facebook page.
Best of luck to you.
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