Phil Hartman as Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer (Click the link to watch the video — hilarious!)
Update: I’m a big advocate of freedom of speech and believe in lively debate and sharing of opinions. That said, name-calling, fighting, and general nastiness will no longer be tolerated. I don’t have a comments policy posted anywhere on this blog, so I’m posting it now. Any comments that are disrespectful, rude, and/or contain foul language will be deleted as spam. If you get enough spam comments, your comments will no longer appear.
The paleo diet is the hottest fad diet since vegetarianism. If you’re not familiar with the movement, paleo folks eat a “paleolithic” or “caveman” diet of meat, more meat, and pretty much anything they can forage (berries, nuts and so forth). The only foods that are allowed are ones that were available prior to the dawn of agriculture 10,000 years ago.
If you’re following a paleo diet and it is working for you, more power to you. We can agree to disagree.
Here are my top 10 reasons why I’m not paleo.
Top 10 Reasons I’m Not Paleo
1. I Really Like Cheese
Which is why I named this blog CHEESESLAVE. But cheese is verboten on the paleo diet.
Yes, I know some paleo people eat cheese, but many of them think that eating a chunk of cheddar is equivalent to making a pact with the devil. You see, according to their logic, cheese is a “neolithic” food, and therefore not paleolithic. At best, it’s considered a compromise food for most paleo folks.
It’s true, cheese is neolithic. And yet it has been a staple food among humans for over 10,000 years.
If that’s not “old” enough for you, how old is old enough? Homo habilis? Homo erectus?
I ask you, do we really need to go back 1 million years ago to eat a healthy diet?
And if so, why? Why do we need to go that far back? Are the health benefits of homo erectus that much better than those of say, someone living 100 or 200 or even 500 years ago?
Do we really need to throw the baby out with the bathwater and throw out all dairy (and the foods of domesticated animals) and all grains? If so, why? Is there evidence for that?
Sorry, I’m going into Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer here…. 
But honestly, if you’ve been eating paleo for any length of time, don’t you miss grilled cheese sandwiches? Quesadillas? Pizza?
Speaking of pizza and grilled cheese sandwiches…
2. I Really Like Bread
Crusty sourdough with lots of butter. Hearty brown German sunflower bread. Croissants. (Yes, croissants. They may be made with white flour, which is very low on the nutrient-density scale. But did you know they are almost 40% butter?)
And is bread really that bad for you? How can it be, when humans around the world have been thriving on it as a staple in their diet for over 10,000 years (and possibly up to 50,000 years)?
Is the modern epidemic of “gluten intolerance” really caused by eating wheat? Or is it possible that something else is causing gluten intolerance?
There is a theory that antibiotic drugs cause an imbalance of gut flora and cause prevent the digestive tract from secreting enzymes that enable us to break down complex proteins such as gluten. Sounds a lot more plausible than the idea that wheat suddenly started causing gluten intolerance out of nowhere.
I’m sure I’ll get lots of comments about Wheat Belly and the theory of “modern” wheat. Of course, I think that is a load of hogwash. Humans have been cross-breeding crops since the dawn of agriculture. And antibiotics are a LOT more harmful than modern wheat ever will be.
I will write a more detailed post about the flaws in the modern wheat theory at a later date when I finish reading the book.
3. I Really Like Cookies. And Cake. And Pies.
Hey, I understand, you’re on the GAPS diet, you can’t eat grains. That’s cool. I totally respect that. I gave up gluten for 2 years when I was healing my gut in my 20s. (And yes, I did overcome gluten intolerance.)
But would I go without grains for life? No way. I don’t eat sweets every day, but I do enjoy them often. And of course, I do try to use unrefined sweeteners.
And what is wrong with pies exactly? Oh sure, there’s some white flour in the crust. But it’s also loaded with nutritious butter and lard. Can this really be so bad?
And do you really need to eat like Australopithecus Afarensis to feel like you’re eating a healthy diet? Have you seen a picture of Australopithecus Afarensis lately?
Here you go:
Why not just go back one hundred years? Or even two hundred? That still constitutes a traditional diet. Heck, we could evren go back to the middle ages.
And you know what they ate in the middle ages? They ate pies.
4. Paleo is Low Carb
By default. And low carb messed me up. See my post: Why I Ditched Low Carb.
Be sure to read the bit about Chris Masterjohn, Dr. Weston Price, the people living near the Arctic Circle and fertility. That was key for me, and really opened my eyes. If you have to eat thyroid gland in order to reproduce, your low carb diet may not be working so well.
Hey, if you’re living in a place where you don’t have any access to carbs (i.e. the North Pole), then, yeah, it makes sense to go kill a bunch of moose and hand out the thyroid glands to the young people who want to have babies. But if you have ready access to carbs, such as potatoes and bread and rice, why not eat them?
And by the way, the Weston A. Price Foundation diet is not low carb. Dr. Price never recommended a low carb diet. There were some cultures he studied who ate low carb, but many others who did not. I’ll be writing a post about that soon.
5. The Paleo Diet is Too Restrictive
We live in a world dominated by pizza, nachos and chocolate chip cookies. Are you really going to tell your kids they can’t have these things — ever — because (ahem) “they’re not paleo”?
Why not, instead, learn how to make healthy versions of nachos and chocolate chip cookies and pizza (recipe coming soon)?
If you raise your children to be logical and good critical thinkers (and I hope you do), I don’t think they’ll fall for your flawed logic that a paleo is superior just because it is paleo. (See #6 and #7 below.)
I understand that we want our children to eat a nutritious diet. And there is nothing wrong with promoting nutritious foods and working hard to get our children to eat them. Obviously I am a proponent of that — otherwise, I would have never started this blog, and kept it going for almost five years.
I always tell my daughter she can’t have candy or cookies before dinner because they are foods that won’t make her grow big and strong. However, she’s allowed dessert after dinner. I try to serve nutrient-dense desserts like crème brûlée or ice cream made with grass-fed cream and egg yolks, chock-full of fat-soluble activators, vitamins A, D and K2.
I’d never tell her she can’t eat a cookie because “it’s not paleo”. That’s just bad logic.
And around here, we follow the 80/20 rule. A cookie here and there won’t kill you if you are eating a nutritious diet most of the time.
6. Paleo is Not Scalable
There’s a reason the hunters and gathers died out. Nothing against hunter-gatherers, but they were all almost completely wiped out by people who ate cheese and bread.
Why? How? Want the evidence? Read Jared Diamond’s fascinating book, Guns, Germs and Steel.
In the book, Diamond explains that there are advantages to learning how to domesticate animals — especially big herbivores such as goats, cows, horses and sheep. You can use them to plow fields faster. And they can provide you with high-protein, nutrient-dense foods such as milk, butter and cheese.
And there are benefits to growing grains, which will store for very long periods of time. If you’ve got a silo of grain, and a cow that gives you milk every day, you no longer have to spend your days hunting and foraging and scheming how you’re going to get your next meal, you have more time to do things like invent new kinds of technology. Like steel weapons, guns — and iPads.
Diamond tells an amazing story in Guns, Germs and Steel about the Spanish conquest of the Peruvian Inca. On November 15th 1532, 168 Spanish conquistadors showed up in the holy city of Cajamarca, Peru, where they found 80,000 Peruvian soldiers. Although seriously outnumbered, 168 Spaniards slaughtered over 7,000 Inca warriors within 24 hours.
How did this happen? (1) The Spaniards had horses and the Peruvians had no domesticated animals other than llamas, which could not be ridden. Soldiers on horseback had a distinct advantage over soldiers on foot. (2) The Spaniards had steel swords and guns. The Inca were unarmed.
While guns and steel killed many native people (as the above story illustrates), it was germs that were responsible for the genocide of the Indians:
European farmers, rearing cattle, pigs, sheep, goats, horses and donkeys, lived in close proximity with their animals — breathing, eating and drinking animal germs.
Native Americans had no domesticated animals, and when they were exposed to these germs from livestock, they perished in great numbers.
Is this to say that killing innocent people and taking their land is a good thing? No, Diamond is not defending colonialism; nor am I. He is simply making the point that there are very few hunter-gatherer tribes left on the planet because the world has changed and technology has advanced.
When we stop having to worry so much about how to find food, we are able to advance as a species.
Because hunting is so unpredictable, traditional societies have usually relied more on gathering. In this part of Papua New Guinea, the gathering is done by women. An important source of food here [in Papua New Guinea] is wild sago. By stripping a sago tree they can get to the pulp at the centre, which can be turned into dough and then cooked. Although it’s physically harder work, gathering is generally a more productive way of finding food than hunting. But it still doesn’t provide enough calories to support a large population.
Jared Diamond: This jungle around us, you might think it’s a cornucopia, but it isn’t. Most of these trees in the jungle don’t yield, don’t give us anything edible. There were just a few sago trees, and the rest of these trees don’t yield anything that we could eat.
And then sago itself has got limitations — one tree yields only maybe about 70 pounds of sago. It takes them three or four days to process that tree, so it’s a lot of work really for not a great deal of food, plus the sago starch is low on protein, and also the sago can’t be stored for a long time. And that’s why hunter/gatherer populations are so sparse. If you want to feed a lot of people, you’ve got to find a different food supply, you’ve got to find a really productive environment, and it’s not going to be a sago swamp. (Source)
7. Paleo is Based on Fantasy
The paleo diet is fundamentally flawed. It’s a diet based on misinformation about the past and the present. Paleo adherents believe that the hunter-gatherer lifestyle is somehow superior to that of the sedentary agriculturalist. It is a romantic ideal based on fantasy, not reality.
The reality is that living as a hunter-gatherer is not an easy life, and it was not a lifestyle people chose because they thought it was cool or better. Hunter-gatherers did/do not have access to domesticated animals and did not have the ability to grow crops. I find it very hard to believe that if they had cows or sheep that they would not have found a way to start milking them.
Why go forage for a meal or hunt for a wild animal when you can keep a cow who will give you milk every day with a lot less effort?
I guarantee you, if you were living in the wild, subsisting on sago that takes 3-4 days to process and is very low in protein, and someone brought you a cow that would give you milk every day, or showed you how to cultivate honey from a bee hive, you would jump at the chance.
According to Jared Diamond in Guns, Germs and Steel, cannibalism may have arisen in New Guinea due to the scarcity of sources of protein. The traditional crops, taro and sweet potato, are low in protein compared to wheat and pulses, and the only edible animals available were small or unappetizing, such as mice, spiders, and frogs. Cannibalism led to the spread of Kuru disease, affecting the brain, similar to Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, prompting the Australian administration to outlaw the practice in 1959. (Source)
I’m not saying that if you become a hunter-gather, you will be driven to cannibalism. I’m just saying hunting and gathering isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. And maybe grains and legumes aren’t so bad after all. Balance is a good thing.
8. Paleo is Impractical
Is anyone really expecting people to get out and hunt for their breakfast? How about foraging? Are we expected to forage for our all of our meals? On top of working 9 hours per day plus taking care of the kids and getting them to soccer practice?
So how do we “do” paleo in the real world? Buy grass-fed beef and organic arugula from the upscale health food store? And is this really practical?
OK, I can see storing loads of meat and fish in the deep freeze. I do that.
But how do we stay on top of all the fresh veggies? We can’t serve beans or grains — so we must keep vast amounts of fresh veggies in the fridge and freezer.
If you ask me, it’s exhausting. Especially if you have a large family.
Now, I’m not knocking the GAPS Diet for those who really need it. If I had an autistic child and s/he was doing better on GAPS (and I’ve heard so many stories from moms whose kids have VASTLY improved on GAPS), you’d better believe I’d follow GAPS.
But GAPS is a temporary diet for people who need healing. It’s not, in my opinion, a lifelong diet. Dr. Campbell-McBride includes instructions in her book, Gut and Psychology Syndrome: Natural Treatment for Autism, Dyspraxia, A.D.D., Dyslexia, A.D.H.D., Depression, Schizophrenia, for how to reintroduce dairy products, legumes, and whole grains.
9. Paleo is Expensive
I can make a one-pound loaf of whole wheat sourdough bread for about 50 cents to $1. Compare that to anywhere from $4-12 for a pound of ground beef.
Dried beans cost around 25 to 50 cents after they are soaked and cooked.
If you’re in your twenties and you have a lot of disposable income, then sure, paleo is no problem.
But for a single mom who is struggling to put food on the table to feed her three kids, it’s another story. If she’s on the paleo diet, she’s not allowed to stretch meals with beans and rice and bread. Because it’s “not paleo”.
I’ve met plenty of people from Honduras and Mexico and Guatemala who grew up on rice and beans (and plenty of good fats and organ meats) who had no cavities or degenerative disease. Same goes for people from Russia and Slovakia.
Not to mention the healthy cultures that Dr. Weston A. Price studied. The Swiss who ate 50% of their diet as sourdough rye bread. Or the Scots who ate 50% of their diet as soaked oats. They were vibrantly healthy eating whole grains.
10. The Paleo Diet is a Waste of Time and Energy
I often see Paleo people on Facebook or Paleo Hacks arguing over whether or not honey is paleo. They proudly pronounce their disdain for milk and other dairy products, as “neolithic foods”.
I ask you, why do people sit around arguing about whether or not honey is paleo? Why not just go buy some honey at the grocery store? Or, better yet, a farmer’s market?
Why not just feed yourself with what is available, and then get on to more important things, such as inventing alternative energy sources or curing cancer?
Subscribing to an extremely rigid diet based on a load of misinformation and made-up ideas and sitting around defending it seems like a giant waste of time, especially when there are so many more interesting, valuable, and important things to be doing in the world.
I’m not recommending that we go out and buy boxes of Frosted Flakes. But what is wrong with soaked granola made with raw, local honey? My point is that there is a middle ground. We don’t need to travel back thousands of years to be healthy.
Want More?
If you enjoyed this post, you will enjoy this e-book by Matt Stone: 12 Paleo Myths. I read and loved it. I’ll be posting a review soon.
Update: I’m a big advocate of freedom of speech and believe in lively debate and sharing of opinions. That said, name-calling, fighting, and general nastiness will no longer be tolerated. I don’t have a comments policy posted anywhere on this blog, so I’m posting it now. Any comments that are disrespectful, rude, and/or contain foul language will be deleted as spam. If you get enough spam comments, your comments will no longer appear.
Disclosure: cmp.ly/4 and cmp.ly/5
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Ugh… you missed the point. Do you know what? We aren’t restrictive. We actually can have cheese. We can make paleo cookies! We can almost make paleo anything! The point is this: On the Paleo Diet we do one thing different. We don’t hunt our food. No sir, we buy our yummy paleo food from Whole Foods and other healthy, paleo stores. And do you what? I loved bread, and all that other stuff. But your life changes. And you can make paleo pizza, grilled cheese, and quesadilla. Please look up “MarksDailyApple.Com” on google for more info.
You’re entitled to your opinion, but please source scientific studies to your claims. If not, then that’s just it…baseless opinions. Contrary to this wildly popular belief that Paleo is “low carb”, it is not. Carbs are plentiful via roots, fruits, and so on. Most paleo folks eat Sweet Potatoes, White Potatoes, and Fruits. As it evovles (the irony in this word, I get it), people start finding ways to re-introduce things they love, in paleo ways (Almond butter, almond bread, cauliflower rice, and so on). In all seriousness, this article should be named “Why I WONT do paleo”, instead of “Why I CAN’T do paleo”. It’s not a notion of you finding it impossible, it’s a notion of you failing to have the discipline to try it for 30 days. I’m all for people saying “I tried it for 30 days, and re-introduced things I missed; i had no issues”. That’s fine, your body clearly can cope with grains/breads/cheeses. However, if you haven’t even given it a chance…and you criticize it…it’s hard to take your opinion seriously.
Let me clarify, studies from things like the National Library of Medicine. Armchair or controlled studies don’t seem to count as much. You can almost say anything backs up your claim if some random doctor, that isn’t peer reviewed does a control study which is given the environment for their bias to thrive.
I find this blog very honest and after being a vegetarian on paleo and raw food diets ill tell you all that your wasting your time cutting out food groups that you will only end up eating down the line. Its all about the quality of the products we buy. Staying away from GMOs chemicals preservitives and unnatural things. We all agree we need to get back to a more natural place but that takes alot more then are diet. I find it easy to make paleo and yes it cost more but its better for you and your family but dairy is awesome and so is sprouted grains beans and legumes. All you can do is try your best and not say your 100% of anything. Its all about reducing certain foods and increasing others fruits and vegetables should be the center of every meal no matter what.
Its not really a matter of whether your are or are not “paleo” you can follow a paleo diet mostly but still feel free to divulge occasionally on whatever you want.
1. Human health has declined in the past 10,000 years so I don’t understand how “It’s true, cheese is neolithic. And yet it has been a staple food among humans for over 10,000 years.” is a valid point.
2. The fact that those humans didn’t choose that lifestyle is exactly the point. They ate in a way that supported a much tougher life style and therefore put a heavier trial on their bodies, which is why they were healthier presumably considered that we are here and they were able to do things then that we could probably never manage.
3. Butter is both dairy and very fattening. Fat isn’t “bad” for you but won’t look to good if you don’t use what you eat.
4. The amount of carbs you need depends on many factors such as your weight and how active you usually are. What you don’t use will simply be stored in fat so whether or not that is “bad” for you just depends on A. How active you are and B. How much extra fat you want on you.
5. Guns were the only reason those who ate bread won, given time to be equal in advancement, the Indians would have by far won. Considering it was arguably Indian Guerrilla fighting tactics which won American Independence, and the fact that indians could be a force at all with only bows and tomahawks and the such. You can’t really argue that bread caused the development of guns so that point is void. Even so. it would make sense considering early brain development without those things, if anything, it was a cause of a harsher environment that required more innovation, and separate individual discoveries in different order from the different continents, but that is a different discussion.
6. It is definitely more expensive, but it is more expensive for a reason. It is better for you, and in most cases you can get away with eating less of that healthy stuff and still be filled up. Consider buying in bulk and ordering online for some things. If you love tea or coffee for exmaple, you can order a lot in bulk for a low price of good quality stuff depending on where you look. There are also farmers markets and other things to save on the fruits and veggies. Fruit is excellent for energy but is extremely high in sugar (albeit natural sugar). It is best to have maybe a banana or and apple in the morning in place of coffee (it is said to provide with more energy anyway).
7. Another important factor of diet is also when you eat, which is not talked about much. The best thing is to eat the most for breakfast and snack on small nutritional things such as almonds throughout the day and not to eat anything after 6pm. Ideally load your breakfast with protein and carbs (depending on how much you work out and whether or not you want to gain or lose weight) and, as a said previously, maybe half of a banana to energize you which you finish around the time you get the 4 o clock drowsiness.
8. Bottom line, you really don’t need to justify the way you eat. Healthier people feel better, think clearer, and are more awake. If you want to sacrifice those things for the temporary pleasure of cheese, sweets, and other things it is totally your choice. Don’t complain when you are to blame for all of these things not being there though. A little bit of cheese or the occasional cake is not going to totally ruin your diet though. Plus all of this changes when activity is mixed into the equation. The more you work out the more you can get away with in terms of eating, it would be most beneficial to study what you individually need to maintain/gain/lose weight and feel the best.
OMG…..THANK YOU for this post! My hubby had this brilliant plan to go primal for the month of April (primal is like paleo but WITH the cheese ((thought you’d like that!))…). Well, the first week I went through the carb flu. The second week I was just bored with the limited food choice. And here I am on week three and announced at lunch that I was DONE. Seriously, I run a home daycare, have two homeschooled children of my own and I do NOT have time to cook up chicken breasts and grind freaking nuts at lunch time. What a time-sucker paleo is. Honestly……I MISS pasta, bread and the good things in life. What’s the point in living life if you can’t even have a piece of bread? Life is far too short. And, yes, I hear you on ‘soccer practice nights’. Lord, I have two kids to get to Scouting…some nights I just need a one-pot meal of pasta.
I tried primal/paleo. I’m not a believer. I was miserable. Sure, I lost 8 pounds in three weeks (because I never cheated once) but I am also sure that most of that is likely water weight. Oh, and what fun it was the ONE time I went to a restaurant and thought the ribs I was ordering were the best choice….my body revolted in ways unimaginable. Is that what it’s like to be primal and then need to function in the real world where sometimes NON-paleo/primal foods are what is offered to eat?
NO thanks……pass the bread.
Melissa,
No doubt, paleo or primal diets take more thought than the typical SAD, but are you at all familiar with the diet that Cheeseslave advocates? You complain about grinding nuts (why you’d have to do this for lunch every day is beyond me, but different strokes, etc.) but she actually grinds GRAINS. But she doesn’t grind them from their harvested state, first she soaks or sours them for 24 hours, then dehydrates them, and THEN she grinds them. She bakes her own breads from scratch because you can’t get ancestrally prepared grains (in any form) in most restaurants.
So though I get that actually having to think about and PLAN what will nourish you and your family is more energy consuming than eating the crap you find in a package in the stores- be careful jumping onto the WAPF badwagon– you certainly won’t be saving any time or energy there.
And I can’t resist asking, how does the addition of bread or pasta keep you from being “bored or limited”? You must have an extremely limited idea of what constitues food options to be so limited by the removal of two choices. Anyone who thinks their only paleo luncheon option is chicken breast and freshly ground nuts needs to spend a little more time learning what food is and that carbohydrates come in many other forms besides grains.
I think your article makes a few good points. Mainly I agree that the Paleo diet doesn’t truly understand what Paleolithic people actually ate. In a true paleo diet, people would be eating the dandelions, chickweed, and purslane they are spraying in their yards with Roundup instead of the modern domesticated crops they buy at the grocery store. They would also be eating wild game, not domesticated animals.
The other part of the diet that doesn’t make sense is the “no potatoes” rule. People have been digging roots and tubers since long before agriculture, so why single out the potato? Kind if makes the paleo diet look a little more like a low carb diet in disguise. Here is a good article on that: http://www.primalpalate.com/blog/are-potatoes-paleo/
However, I think that paleo is good in the respect that it teaches people the value of unprocessed foods and recommends grass-fed and pasture-raised meats. (Though most people I have talked to who are “paleo” still eat the confined animal junk at the grocery store.
Personally, I believe the ideal diet is a hybrid of the systems. Agriculture isn’t going anywhere, and we aren’t about to let the land go wild again. Does ask any suburbanite to identify the weeds in their neighborhood. Many of them are healthy, edible plants that have a purpose if you took the time to learn it. I believe in permaculture systems that have room for everything in moderation and create abundance without the use of chemicals and fossil fuels, but thats just me.
The paleo diet is FULL of starchy veggies and tubers- the reason white potatoes are “singled out” is because many people are sensitive to nightshades. (tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, tomatillos and white potatoes) So you eliminate them for 30 days, and then add them back and see how you feel. If they work for you, you can eat them.
If you ask the question instead of ignorantly suggesting the restriction is unfounded, you’re more likely to get educated.
I’m pretty moderate when it comes these things, and quite frankly the use of the word ignorant is unnecessary. While I don’t claim to be an expert on “paleo,” nor do I generally engage in fad diets, I will site my source. Right on the Paleo diet website what to eat page: http://thepaleodiet.com/what-to-eat-on-the-paleo-diet/
It says to not eat potatoes. It’s great that the diet has some guidelines to make the diet less restrictive, but you must understand that it is clearly presented on the website as one of the main things not to eat. This is the information presented to anyone looking into the diet, and researching the basic principles of the diet.
Guitarian,
I called you “ignorant”, not stupid, moronic, or idiotic– so perhaps moderating your response would be worthwhile too. If we don’t know something, we are ignorant of it. The negative spin you put on it is your own.
The heading for the page you site reads:
So I do this magical anti-ignorance thing- I plug “paleo diet white potatoes” into a search engine and poof!, I get over 144,000 hits that point me to the data! The page says it isn’t detailed, so if I want to know what it left out, I need to actively LOOK for it. Surely this is a more productive way to gain knowledge than allying yourself with someone who is equally uninformed of the paleo tenets? Did you think Cheeseslave was going to tell you why?
We rarely learn anything from the people that agree with us. We also tend not to learn when we don’t actually LOOK for the information too.
Such good points, Guitarian. I agree with you totally, especially about the beautiful vision of the permaculture systems! Thank you for sharing your careful and wise thoughts.
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You’re very misinformed about gluten – most humans didn’t start consuming massive quantities of wheat until recently, when obesity and diabetes skyrocketed. In many cultures wheat is barely consumed – for example my family is Asian and our primary grain is rice, and in our country people barely eat wheat. Personally it makes me feel constipated/bloated – and I have never taken antibiotics or any other medicine so there goes that silly idea. Modern wheat is also completely different from the wheat our ancestors ate, even 2 centuries ago.
I disagree with Paleo diet because: Anthropologists say it’s very different from how our ancestors actually ate – plants/animals have evolved a lot over the past 10,000 years! Cavemen got much of their protein from insects, not steak. Paleo also excludes nutritious food groups like lentils. Beans/peas offer a lot of nutrition and antinutrients are not an issue if they’re cooked properly. Paleo also bans all grains – I completely understand the aversion to wheat but I think rice and quinoa are good alternatives. There are many other reasons but I don’t want to make this comment an essay lol…
Tl;dr paleo isn’t great but the author is misinformed and made a terrible argument.
I also do not agree with the Paleo diet, but this article makes no valid points. It basically equates to “I like pizza! I like chocolate! I like cake!” Too bad because there are many valid reasons to oppose Paleo. The author also foolishly assumes that everyone’s diet is high in wheat and that grains = gluten. But for the majority of people (most people are Asian) rice is the primary grain, not wheat, and rice is gluten-free. For those sensitive to wheat, brown rice especially is a good alternative grain. Your average overweight White American’s diet is not reflective of how most healthy people around the world actually eat. As for cheese, some people are sensitive to dairy. Fortunately I’m not one of those because like the author, I love cheese!
Exactly everything you said! Also, I am a Christian and the Bible talks about bread a lot as an essential food in various cultures. Jesus refers to Himself as “the bread of life”. Not to mention Ezekiel Bread! I was grain free for a bit, but have since added prepared grains back in our diet and have been so much better off! I really believe it’s about cutting out all of the fake crap and figuring out what’s best for you and your family. Thanks for this great post! Love your blog!
Way to justify your dietary practices with the scribbling of primitives instead of legitimate science. Faith involves surrendering logic in the name of mysticism, which renders your argument invalid from the start. The reason bread is mentioned so frequently through the bible is because it was a staple of life when the book was written. No reason greater than that.
Hi Steve,
My decision wasn’t solely based on my faith, since God doesn’t direct us to eat anything specific, except to refrain from eating food that was offered to idols (referring to the New Testament). I was merely citing a personal conviction that doesn’t necessarily apply to anyone else. I also didn’t feel it necessary to belabor previously made points or cite research on the nutritional availability of traditionally prepared grains, legumes, nuts, & seeds, since so many others have already done a much better job at that than I could! I was only sharing my own personal “balance tipper”, if you will.
But, I do believe the Bible is the living, breathing, active, authoritative Word of God, so I think it’s safe to say (based on your comments) that you and I obviously clash in our worldview. If God told me to never eat cheese again, I would obey. I would be sad! But I would obey. However, He said all things are permissable through the apostle Paul, with moderation of course. If you’d like a more detailed description of the decision-making process I went through before deciding that we would start to consume sprouted, soaked, and fermented grains and legumes as a family, I will gladly provide links and references to literature that helped me along in my journey! I’m happy that Paleo is working really well for you.
We continue to eat Paleo meals throughout the week, and enjoy how much our bodies love these traditional foods!
please send the links! Thank you.
Great post. I was checking constantly this blog and I’m impressed! Very helpful info particularly the last part
I care for such info much. I was seeking this certain info for a long time. Thank you and best of luck.
All I see in the entire article, is someone needs to watch the documentary “Fat Head.” I’m not really eating “paleo” mainly because I REFUSE to give up raw milk and cheese. I drink 2 glasses a day, and it’s a night and day difference in taste and feeling afterwards in comparison with the pasteurized junk. Well, all I can really say is you’re entitled to your own opinion, but if you eat meat, please make sure it is grass fed.
was not my point at all…
LOL JP thinks you missed the point. >.< I think he needs to be more sensitive to sarcasm.
I’m kinda curious about your take on the data that Huntress posted. It looks like a pretty legitimate piece of data… Are you going to comment on this?
I’d kinda like to hear your argument here too.
Potato chips are good food? FAIL. Where is that posted?
@Fancy
Potato chips are good food? FAIL. Where is that posted?
In the Weston A Price Foundation shopping guide.
Wow, this is the most negative post I’ve seen since I first joined Cheeseslave. I am into Paleo foods, not 100% as I also consume raw dairy/milk/cheese. After reading Wheat Belly book, I learned a lot about grains, blood sugar spikes, etc. I cut out grains because of weight gain, cravings, etc. Since I started Paleo, cutting out grains, I no longer have cravings and feel more satiated eating full fat foods. I’m down to eating twice a day instead of three. I will only eat desserts on special occasions/holidays. I disagree with Ann-Marie that eating Paleo foods is very expensive. Buying grass-fed, organic foods is expensive! You can buy a quarter/half cow for beef at local farm at a reasonable price. We all have to listen to our bodies what foods work/don’t work for us, whether it’s Paleo, GAPS, Vegan, Vegetarian, etc. However, will say that low-fat diets do not work!
@Pegasus
I’m not going to comment on anything else Huntress says. I’m deleting all of her comments. I don’t need to put up with vitriolic personal attacks.
What happened to the post with data on children and tooth decay? I’m gonna go see if I can find it in my email- I think it came with notifications when I subscribed to the thread. You wouldn’t delete something like that just because it doesn’t support your argument, would you? That would be very disappointing.
@Fancy
No I deleted it because I was deleting all the posts by Paleo Huntress
I marked them all as spam
What’s all the hoopla about? This is an excellent post. It’s articulate and whimsical, Very well written..it’s someone’s opinion as to why they do not subscribe to the paleo ideas.Therefore, it is subjective to the personal beliefs of the blogger. If you don’t agree with it, then you don’t agree with it. If you do agree with it, you agree. It’s simple.
Ann Marie- Do you remember your post on hourglass figures? It was so liberating. This post has the same feeling to me. You are basically saying with these posts “be who you are, eat what feels good, and then move on and get over it. There is too much life that passes you by when you focus becomes so analytical,.”
I was on paleo for about a year and a half. I felt amazing for the first 6 months. I lost 30 lbs, I had energy (even though i have CFS) and life was a happier place. Then I had yearnings for bread! Then my stomach started to growl every 5 seconds. I could not give it enough meat and veggies. I even added in nut butters and more fruit. My body just wasn’t happy. Then I felt weak and shaky between meals. My hands and feet became very cold.
The worst symptom? I was afraid of food. I thought that somehow if I ate the perfect diet, I would be the healthiest person. If I let one “not advised” food slip in, I was a goner! I really believe I almost contracted an eating disorder. It was just too crazy for my mind to be focused on my every morsel, what I had to avoid. it was a lot of work. Can you believe I was afraid of carrots? Too much sugar “they” said. “It’s like eating a grain” they said.
I no longer subscribe to diets. The paleo ruined my metabolism. I gained back more weight than I lost. I just want to eat real food, and enjoy everything the next season has to offer. Any foodie will tell you that the realest ingredients taste the best. It should just be a bonus to us that real food is healthier to out bodies.
There is so much that can be said on this topic. So many intricate ideas and opinions. But I think life is better when things are simple. We need to stop dissecting every little thing. Our bodies are smart. I say we let them do the talking. If it wants a carrot, or even grilled corn (gasp!) then i say we best oblige.
I assume then that you’ll address it if it doesn’t come from her? I found the notification with the link in my email- I’m post in a primary comment so it doesn’t get lost in here.
@Nicole
Do you remember your post on hourglass figures? It was so liberating. This post has the same feeling to me.
Yes, that post pissed a lot of people off, too. Not sure why — I had no idea people would be upset by it.
I can totally relate to the fear of foods! I got to the point that I was afraid of fruit. So crazy! I just bought some cherries yesterday and it is so nice to be able to enjoy them again.
Amen!
Nicole,I had the exact same experience adding in the mood swings. I too was afraid of food and it preoccupied my thoughts all day long. Thanks for sharing.
That IS an eating disorder!
Orthorexia nervosa (also known as orthorexia) is not mentioned in the DSM[a] first used by Steven Bratman to characterize people who develop an obsession with avoiding foods perceived to be unhealthy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthorexia_nervosa
if you were “afraid of fruit”, thats 100% your own issue, and not a paleo dictate. in fact, almost all of your reasons for not being paleo clearly stem from your own misguided interpretation of the diet, and not from anything outside of you. i think you should accept some responsibility here, and you just arent. its more than fine to say that paleo asnt right for you, but all this anger and lashing out that is based totally and completely on falsehoods (that fruit isnt an approved food), incorrect stereotypes (that paleo is low carb), and just outright incorrect information is absurd. and frankly, the article you wrote is a list of logical fallacies which is comically ironic considering you are accusing all of your dissenters of logical fallacies themselves.
im paleo and i dont eat red meat more than once a week. there are vegetarian paleo people, raw paleo people, WAP paleo people, moderate and higher carb paleo people…..the list goes on and on. i eat honey and fruit and rice and the occasional buckwheat pancake and none of my diet is incongruent with any but the most strict whole9 version of paleo. which is also a useful paradigm for many, many people.
i guess i dont get why youre so angry and sarcastic. so low carb wasnt right for you. big whoop. it isnt right for many women, but that dosent have to mean that its not right for ANY women, and like everyone else has already pointed out, paleo isnt necessarily low carb anyway.
i stopped following this blog a long time ago because of the authors angry soapbox diatribes, and utter intolerance for nuance. its very unfortunate because when i first discovered the world of ancestral eating, this blog was a wonderful resource for me. unfortunately, the lack of personal insight and intellectual curiosity from the author has become almost a caricature. even in this comment thread, the only time you address the dissenters is to tell them that you wont address their “ad hominem attacks”, of which i have seen NONE. you have not entertained the idea that maybe the majority of commenters here who are critical of this blog post ACTUALLY MIGHT HAVE A POINT. honestly, i dont know if im at cheeseslave or “free the animal” anymore.
i think ill stick to rawfoodsos from now on. denise eats a raw food, largely pescatarian paleo diet that consists mostly of fruit and fish. it works for her, and she dosent presume to think that it is the ideal diet for anyone but her, but she has an open mind that is plastic and flexible. she conducts herself with grace and maturity, and her blog reflects her own respect of the intellectual process and of scientific rigor.
i hope you find what youre looking for, and that you will someday no longer feel the need to slash and burn what hasnt.
I think most people read this and completely agree with you, cheeseslave. However, this is the internet, where everyone who can be offended is offended and where all of those people feel the need to tell everyone just to what degree they have been offended — while sounding like insufferable, whining babies. Nothing you have said is even remotely offensive. In fact, and I don’t give two flips about diets or anything like that (someone linked to this on facebook so I checked it out), I found your opinion refreshing. If a person out there wants to follow a paleo diet — whatever; it’s fine. But, you have an opinion about that diet, and you have stated why you don’t follow it without calling anybody names or being rude in any way. But, like I said — it’s the internet, where everything is a matter of dire importance.
Keep up the great work!
@Amanda
I did not blame paleo for my fear of fruit. That was low carb.
incorrect stereotypes (that paleo is low carb),
Most paleo people I speak to and read about ARE low carb. They argue on the internet about how many carbs are too many. Read Mark Sisson’s blog, read Nora Gedgaudus, etc. etc.
I’m sure there are high-carb paleos out there. Sorry for the generalization.
But MOST paleos seem to be low-carb.
the article you wrote is a list of logical fallacies which is comically ironic considering you are accusing all of your dissenters of logical fallacies themselves.
How are they logical fallacies? How is it a logical fallacy for me to say, I don’t eat Paleo because I like bread? And the paleo movement is not scalable. I don’t see how most people can give up the agriculturalist lifestyle and give up grains. Look, vegans have been around for a long time, they get a lot of press, and they are still only less than 5% of the population.
i stopped following this blog a long time ago because of the authors angry soapbox diatribes, and utter intolerance for nuance.
So why are you reading it? If you don’t like it, that’s cool.
its very unfortunate because when i first discovered the world of ancestral eating, this blog was a wonderful resource for me. unfortunately, the lack of personal insight and intellectual curiosity from the author has become almost a caricature.
If you want to attack me as being angry and hostile, having a lack of personal insight and intellectual curiosity, go right ahead. I don’t see how that helps you win your argument. It just seems mean. I am not attacking anyone personally.
even in this comment thread, the only time you address the dissenters is to tell them that you wont address their “ad hominem attacks”, of which i have seen NONE.
When someone says, “This post is wrong because you are dumb,” that is an ad hominem attack. Or “This post is wrong because you are fat” or “you are hostile and angry” — those are all ad hominem arguments.
If I am angry, which I am not, by the way, has nothing to do with whether or not my argument is valid. And trying to draw attention to my alleged anger, my stupidity, my weight, or WHATEVER, are all attempts to take the focus off the argument and onto something which has nothing to do with the argument.
amanda, I am working towards being paleo. I agree with what you are saying and how you are saying it.
I have been frequenting mark’s daily apple and recommend it for unbias (mostly) informative articles that are funny and well thought out.
It seems that in the paleo lifestyle has people that micro-manage every detail about what they eat and how they live. There are those that dont.
I think what bothers me about this article is that, if you follow the paleo lifestyle there is enough resistance as it is without anyone adding to it.
I agree with Amanda. Cheeslave doesn’t really understand Paleo much at all.
@Fancy
I never said that I don’t like paleo people or that paleo people are wrong or stupid.
I do think the paleo diet is a trendy fad diet.
There are parts of it that are good, but I don’t believe that we have to be so rigid and extreme in order to be healthy
Uh huh, that’s like- “I never said I don’t like blacks or Hispanics, I just don’t want them living next door to me..”
You still don’t get it…
“There are parts of it that are good, but I don’t believe that we have to be so rigid and extreme in order to be healthy”
I think this is a good point but I don’t think it came across at all in your post. I’ve been thinking about this for several days. This post really upset me and I’m not even that invested in “paleo.” I just thought the whole tone of the post was discouraging and not about being healthy by eating real food.
HI! I have never been in this website before but I guess I ended here because of a certain post
. I would like to say I’m a bit disappointed with all the hate posts. I believe it really reinforces the image of Paleo as a religion and it really doesn’t help. I have been eating primal for about a year with good results but I have to say I really agree with this:
I do think the paleo diet is a trendy — diet.
There are parts of it that are good, but I don’t believe that we have to be so rigid and extreme in order to be healthy
The fad aspect I believe only time will tell and actually I think paleo is also evolving in many more flexible variations, therefore the primal and Paleo 2.0 and etc.
Many people resort to the Paleo diet to loose weight so in that context cookies and cake may not fit that well but I totally agree with you in the fact they can be quite tasty.
Paleo can be lowcarb indeed and as a tool to loose weight it has worked for many, also the idea of being able to run on fat instead of carbs all the time doesn’t seem completely out of place. Now the fact it didn’t worked for you is a very good reason not to do it.
I agree paleo as any other diet can be impractical but wouldn’t you agree with the fact that many health problems of society came from the practicality itself? like saying I like cookies a lot, I have easy access to cookies everywhere sort of thing?
Paleo can be indeed expensive, and bread is cheap, then again if you believe organic is better then the expense is justified and so on.
Cheeseslave I liked your post and thought it was nice that somebody was speaking against the paleo diet for their own self. It seams that people think this is some miracle diet and I almost fell for it the way it was spoken so highly of. I do try to do a low carb diet for me and my kids because we do better, and have the room for other foods. But I can’t do a restricted diet like that, and would end up going crazy and eating more carbs than I would be used to because I would be obsessing over not eating them. Call me weak I don’t care. I have 3 small kids and they like tacos with sprouted corn tortillas, smoothies made with kefir, cheese and apples, milk with their oatmeal, what on earth would I feed them on a Paleo diet? They are picky enough. And I think people should try to remember that they can’t really hear the person who is writing so try not to assign a tone to them, it could just be the mood you are in and not the writer. And where is the freedom of speech here? It’s her blog. And I watched the Paleo guys video, he has an attitude of his own, nobody is saying anything about that. And weren’t cavemen probably eating raw meat? Seriously I coudn’t stop thinking about that. And why would all this food be on earth if we weren’t suppose to eat it? Especially the fermenting foods, like the kefir grains where nobody knows where they even came from and cannot be replicated and they are the perfect match for milk, or the yeast that float in the air and make a sourdough starter, piima culture, and the huge varieties of cheese cultures, and the lime to ferment the corn, even the kombucha that has to have sugar, it is all kind of amazing and to me completes a sort of circle.
Actually, they’re quite good, if you are accustomed to whole grains. If your taste buds are used to white flour, the transition would be difficult. At our house, my kids are used to whole grains. Freshly ground sprouted wheat makes some very tasty items. It has a bit more of a nutty flavor.
Admittedly, I tried to fully subscribe to the Paleolithic ideals at one point a couple of years ago. While I am glad that I did (so that I could kick ‘crap’ to the curb), rigid, full-on Paleo is impractical and unenjoyable for me and I truly feel that it is similar for most. I learned that I shouldn’t be eating crap pastries and breads, pop-tarts and hotpockets; I did, however, find that when I go to the farmer’s market, a real pastry made from real ingredients, or a calzone with real ingredients, or a real loaf of bread with minimal ingredients… it doesn’t affect me the same way that the aforementioned ‘crap’ does. Or negatively at all for that matter. I know that there are some people who are affected by consuming grains and yes, if that is the case, avoid what makes you feel sick.
Paleo taught me some wonderful things. Eat real foods. Eat foods that were grown the way they were supposed to be (be it plant matter or the meat from happy cows permitted to graze on pasture). But the LOCAL food scene is more important to me than eating 100% Paleo. And locally, there are beautiful artisan breads topped with in-house made, local, gorgeous, greasy, delicious sausages. I am not being the woman who throws that gorgeous bun away. If I had an intolerance to that food, certainly.
There needs to be more focus on eating real foods, fresh foods, foods that work for our own bodies… than simply subscribing to one dietary lifestyle. If regimented Paleo is what truly works for you, that is fantastic! But I have found that I can thrive by eating grassfed meats, fat sources, etc… fresh veggies & fruits…
but rice makes me feel just dandy! Fresh bread makes me feel… fresh! I eat what’s good and all in what I consider to be ‘moderation’. Provided it isn’t poisonous to you, enjoy what you will. Live life and enjoy!
I loved this post. It is clear that you consume real foods and are doing what works for you! Unfortunately, it took me a long while to do the same, but I am glad that I ‘got there’!
I make almost everything with sprouted whole wheat flour, from pizza crust to bread. Haven’t tried croissants yet, but I will!
I love cereal, whole grain cereal, whole wheat bread, pasta, you name it I ate it, all whole grain. When we took a paleo challenge last July my husband’s blood sugar normalized within three weeks. We both lost 40 lbs without effort, exercise, or starving. Not eating grains has revolutionized our lives. So you can have my share!
wow!! someones having a very bad day!!! to write such a negative post like this at someone, very childish.
I really hope you have a better day tomorrow.
AM has a lot of followers, there are a lot of us that really respect her and have learned so much from her. I don’t just take AM’s word for it, I do my own research.
Long may AM reign!!
Cheers!!
Eating improperly prepared grains is completely different, health wise and for the health of the gut, than eating properly prepared grains. Of course you saw improvement after discontinuing the consumption of improperly prepared grains.
That’s awesome. I’ve heard the same story from many different people. I’ve lost 130LBS and have never felt better.
Just replied to the wrong post.
Hey Todd. I don’t obey the Old Testament Laws because 1. that was before Christ and 2. the OT Laws were given specifically to the Israelites (Psalm 147:19-20). That’s all I’m gonna say because I don’t want to get too off topic. But thanks for sharing that
Keith, so PERFECTLY said! Ann-Marie, let Keith’s words be the words that you carry with you – since they are said without judgement, malice, or defensiveness, they are probably the truest words on this page.
that one thing would make the whole shopping guide a worthless junk in my eyes. good i never read it
Cheeseslave,
If you were talking about making potato chips at home in olive oil, that is probably true. But have you ever seen how potato chips are manufactured commercially? There is no wasted oil, they never throw anything out. The oil is just fried-in until it’s completely absorbed by the product, and the oil levels are topped off as needed- meaning it’s spending days at high temperatures, bubbling in a giant fryolator, turning over and over, all particles circulating and being exposed to fresh oxygen over and over. Olive oil may be less prone to oxidation than corn, soy or safflower, but it DOES oxidize- and the commercial process used to make potato chips is basically a ‘rancidity machine’. There just really isn’t a commercially produced deep-fried food, fried in liquid oil, that is “good food”. -Sara
@einstein – as one who had once been a strict Paleo follower for over a year, I can tell you that I am not misled by this post, nor do I consider this post “dangerous” as others have mentioned. It is being assumed that most, if not all, who read this blog are blind sheep listening to every word that comes out of Cheeslave’s mouth. We have brains and we do our own research. This is her journey, many of us have had the same as she has had on low carb or Paleo. Paleo has helped many people achieve their goal of health, most of these have come out of a S.A.D. way of eating for most of their lives.
I crashed on Paleo. I did not lose weight. I felt cold and tired all the time. My hair fell out. I felt as if I was in hibernation. White tongue. The worse I felt, the lower the carb I went, because carbs are evil, or so I thought. If I ate a potato I felt guilty. If I ate rice I felt guilty. If I ate a banana I felt guilty.
I did find going off of wheat that my waist is more shapely and my joint pain is less. Previous to going Paleo I was on a real foods diet.
My husband? He lost 30 lbs. in a short period of time. He lost his wheat belly. His sinus issues ceased. More energy. He came from a 50/50 real foods/SAD way of eating. He has since added back grains and does well with no weight gain. If wheat is added back his belly begins to pooch and sinuses begin to flare up.
I’m still working on health issues, Paleo was not my answer. One may not prefer the tone of Cheeslaves post, but it does bring some validity for people like me who have been traveling the Paleo journey without the success that all the Paleo Preachers promise.
I still read some Paleo blogs and make “Paleo” recipes, I just know if I ever comment on a Paleo/primal blog about my lack of results I get a backlash of how I did something wrong in carb count or it is totally ignored and dismissed.
This is my story and I think it fits many others who do not thrive on Paleo.
Btw- whoever it was that mentioned the einkorn, I have been looking that over – I think I will give that a try in the future as my body can handle it, as of the last few months I’ve been adding back some other grains/carbs….my white tongue is getting more pink.
Looking forward to other symptoms getting better as well.
Dear Todd:
For the love of God, put a sock in it already. You’ve made your point, many times over.
The Paleo Diet is a nutritional theory, just like every other type of diet that is codified for therapy uses. It doesn’t fit all needs for all people (it could even be *GASP* flawed!). There is so much genetic diversity within the human population that it is erroneous to think that it does, or that it should. For some it works, and for some it doesn’t, no matter the reason. If it doesn’t work, we need to move on in search of a protocol that does. I’m of the opinion that our American diet pre-industrialization (which was peppered liberally with Native American food staples–beans and corn being high on that list–and pre-GMO crops) is pretty darn healthful for most people. Our nation thrived with great health on this type of diet before 1900. It was when our food system became highly industrialized and science got its greedy hands on it (beginning with WWI and reaching epic proportions soon after WWII) that our health went to crap. We pretty much forgot what food was and how to properly eat it.
Grains, beans, and real diary products are not empty calories. Whoever told you that is a fool. Either that or you don’t know the definition of an empty calorie. They are not devoid of nutrition, and I am really tired of paleo folks spouting off this garbage.
I do not need to give up grains, beans, or dairy to be at my healthy best. I just have to cook them and eat them properly. *MY* diet is pre-industrial American, and I’m living and thriving pretty great on it. Thank you.
If you need to eat Paleo to be at your peak, then that’s what you need to do. Nobody is begrudging you that, but please refrain from claiming that Paleo is the only way to eat healthfully. It’s not.
And that goes for the rest of you Paleo eaters lurking around here. If you don’t like that we disagree with you, go read something else.
Todd, I think that no matter the diet being discussed, people are going to believe that their version of it is THE correct way. It’s a bit like the folks that call Atkins the “Bacon and cheese” diet and then when they fail on it they bash Atkins for a nutritionally deficient diet. Well, the fact is that as it’s written by doctor Atkins, the diet includes loads of fresh produce and eschews processed foods. So low-carb (paleo, WAPF, Zone, etc) may not be your thing, but at least be honest if you weren’t faithful in your education about it, or your following of it. Know what I mean?
~Ann
Roxanne, it looks like Todd has said many times that he doesn’t follow a paleo diet (so he’s not promoting one), and I see that he said only that grains are ‘mostly’ empty calories… which is true. Somewhere further up was a comparison of nutrients between grains and other fresh produce items, and the grains were pathetically low in nutrients. He doesn’t say anywhere (that I’ve read so far) that dairy or legumes are lacking. So I guess he really does need to comment further because people can’t seem to read what was written. What’s interesting is that even someone who doesn’t follow a paleo diet can see the gaping holes in the OP’s original argument.
~Ann
I’m pretty certain that Todd is “Primal Toad”. I’m not sure why he says that he doesn’t follow a Paleo diet when on his “About” page (link below) it says “I sometimes love labels and sometimes hate them. I live a primal lifestyle. This can also be referred to as paleo, caveman, ancestral, and hunter-gatherer.” To people who are Primal maybe it seems like there’s a difference between Primal and Paleo, but to those who don’t know the difference it seems like he’s intentionally being misleading.
http://primaltoad.com/about/
Grains are not low in nutrients at all. They are not nutritionally complete for sure, which is why you don’t base your entire diet on them, but they are FAR from being nutrient deficient (there is a huge difference between the two terms). Heirloom Indian corns, for example, are extremely high in iron, b-vitamins, calcium; are a good source of trace minerals, and when combined with beans (as has been done for centuries in the Americas) make a complete protein. There are similar nutritional profiles for every other “ethnic” grain in the world: quinoa, teff, amaranth, heirloom wheats, and the strains of rice grown in India and Asia. All heirloom grains have very good to superior nutritional profiles. Look up the profile for Khorasan wheat (trademarked as Kamut). It’s one of the world’s oldest strains of wheat, from Ancient Egypt. Kamut has high levels of selenium, zinc, and magnesium and a good profile of b-vitamins; and even though it has a very high protein content, it’s gluten structure has been shown to be more tolerable to gluten sensitive individuals. It’s also pretty high in fat, making it an energy dense food.
Nutritionally empty? I think not.
The problem of the industrialized Western nations is our almost total reliance on 20th century strains of wheat, corn, and to a lesser extant, rye. If the wheat and corn products you are eating are not organic, it’s most assuredly Round-up ready, which is probably why many people have an allergic response to wheat and corn in one form or another.
I apologize for imputing wrong motives. I saw that he had written a post refuting Cheeseslave’s blog post the other day, so I figured it was him commenting. Again, I’m sorry.
Suzanne, It’s awfully mean-spirited to make unfounded accusations against someone like that. I would imagine that if the person you linked to was commenting, he’d want everyone to KNOW who he was.
~Ann
Dude, 34 g of kamut is like a 1/4 of a cup, maybe a bit less than that. That’s not even a serving size.
Why don’t you try this on for size (from that same website):
1 cup of uncooked kamut, which cooks up to about 2 cups, so split in half for a realistic serving.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/10353/2
And, I never said grains were nutrient dense. Many of them are energy dense, not the same thing. I’m saying they are not nutrient deficient. They are not empty. THEY HAVE NUTRITION. Get it? Hello? Anyone? The fact that they are not nutritionally complete or nutrient dense is why I don’t make them the major base of my diet. That doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t eat them, or that they don’t have value for what they DO have.
Low nutrient density does not equal nutrient deficient. As any RD and registered nutritionist will tell you. A nutrient deficient food would be something like table sugar, a can of soda. I wouldn’t classify, and most holistic nutritionists, don’t consider grains to be even low nutrient density. Using the complete nutritional profile, they are considered moderate to high nutrient density based on the type of grain.
I see where you’re coming from, I just don’t agree on the meaning of your terms.
Geez, you make it sound like all I, and all other non-paleo eaters, eat is grains. That is far from the case. The bulk of my diet is produce, as I consume between 8-10 servings of fresh produce nearly everyday, followed up with beans, meat and dairy. I don’t eat grains everyday, probably a few times a week (this past week I think I had something like 4 servings). I’m not lacking for nutrients I assure you, and my good health isn’t going to suffer from eating them the way that I do, not when my diet is so well rounded and varied. And my goal with my diet has never been to eat only nutrient dense foods, because that is too limiting in scope for me. As a professional cook and die hard foodie, I cannot conceive of a world of food with such narrow-mindedness. Food, eating, and cooking is so much more than nutrients. Not having grains in my diet, or beans, or dairy, means missing out on entire cuisines! If that’s the way Paleo eaters want to live, that’s their choice, but it doesn’t have to be mine. There’s room for every nutritional approach, and there is no reason to be so fanatical about it.
Todd
And yes, if I were in the same room with Cheeseslave and she was speaking about this subject, I would ask her about her obvious fat gain because SHE is promoting a diet that is supposed to support good health- and that much fat gain (on someone who isn’t underweight) is a sign of a lack of health.
You don’t know what you are talking about. I overate and gained weight ON PURPOSE in order to bring my body temperature up and balance my hormones. And it worked. My average body temperature is up from the low 97s/high 96s to a steady average of 98.6.
Since I stopped overeating and am just eating normally (when I’m hungry), since June 1, I’ve lost 8 pounds in 4 weeks without even trying. And yes, eating plenty of carbs and grains.
@Todd
I have clearly stated in the Comment Rules that there is to be no trolling and personal attacks. “Fat” and “foolish” are personal attacks.
You’re done.
Woohoooooooooooooooo!
Not to be nit-picky, but isn’t it a little small to respond to a comment and then delete it? Seems the question was quite genuine, and you answered it genuinely. The only point Todd was making was that when a person is dispensing diet advice, their weight is relevant… and it is. Why take so much offense that he asks in the first place?
I wish I didn’t think that you were just waiting for a reason to delete some extremely thought-provoking and relevant comments, but I do. If you didn’t want him to post, you could ban future comments. If you felt that one was an attack, that is the only one that needed deleting. To me you simply seem embarrassed, and he gave you the excuse you needed to remove what embarrassed you.
You look smaller every time you respond here- and perhaps you’ll see that as an attack too and my comments will also be deleted, but better that than tiptoe around the elephant in the room.
~Ann
I’ve been following this post without commenting up to this point and I thought the discussion was pretty interesting up until now. You quote your own rules to justify deleting another poster’s comments, but when I read them for myself, I don’t see any mention of deleting ALL of the comments. I don’t know why anyone would put the energy into debating you when you may reach a point when you don’t like their comments and you not only delete the one that broke your rules, but all of the others as well.
“—-Any comments that are disrespectful, rude, and/or contain foul language will be deleted as spam. If you get enough spam comments, your comments will no longer appear.—-”
Hi, Ann
I have made it clear in my Commenting Guidelines (above) that we don’t tolerate trolling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29) or personal attacks.
Todd posted 21 messages in the past few days! I call that trolling. Which is why I deleted his messages.
Almost all bloggers I know delete the VERY FIRST troll-like message or personal attack. I’ve been busy with other things so I didn’t bother with them.
It’s my blog and I don’t have to take personal abuse in the comments, nor do I have to tolerate trolls.
@Bread Lover
Todd posted 21 messages in the past few days! I call that trolling. Which is why I deleted his messages.
I should have added to the guidelines:
I reserve the right to remove any comments I find offensive.
Period!
If I owned a bar, and someone I was serving was calling me fat, I’d throw them out on their ear.
But you don’t own a bar, you own a blog- and you don’t dispense alcohol, you dispense nutrition and weight loss advice and own a business that profits from further advice. If the term “fat” bothers you, you need to get a thicker skin. I notice he wasn’t the one who actually pointed it out- is “bigger” somehow less insulting than ‘fat’? That’s the price you pay for attempting to profit from celebrity- people will be critical- as they should. You should be a shining beacon for what you’re promoting, and people who want to lose weight don’t see you that way.
There’s no question that some of Todd’s posts felt trollish, but some of them contained some valuable nuggets of information and some thoughtful debate- do you think it actually hurt him that you deleted them? Nah, it only hurts the people reading your blog.
No doubt you can and should do what you want with your own blog… so if ‘small and petty’ is what you’re going for, keep on trucking. In your own words, “more power to you”. If the number of comments in a blog is how trolling is defined, my notifications show more than 150 from you alone. Perhaps you’re trolling your own blog… ahem.
(After this debacle about your misrepresentation of Paleo based on wiki’s definition, haven’t you learned yet that wikipedia is a TERRIBLE resource to cite?)
Where can I find heirloom corn chips made with olive oil?
Ya, that’s why I don’t eat corn chips. I cut out the high carb diet after reading Dr Barry Sears book on avoiding heart disease.
I was about to start eating GMO wheat products when I read about the Spaniards slaughtering the Incas, because I thought it would make me look all macho, but then I reasoned that genocide might not be a good argument for any certain type of diet.
If insulin cycling makes you feel alive, by all means, do it!
If you think primal diners don’t eat potatoes, bananas, fruit, honey or chocolate, think again.
Just kidding! Don’t think, research and learn, just keep eating your 6 to 11 servings of grain a day. Worked for Tim Russert, and he was one of Time Magazines 100 most influential people of the 20th century!
@Bread Lover
But you don’t own a bar, you own a blog- and you don’t dispense alcohol, you dispense nutrition and weight loss advice and own a business that profits from further advice.
I got nothing against a bar. In fact, I’m drinking wine right now.
If the term “fat” bothers you, you need to get a thicker skin.
Or maybe you need to have some empathy for other human beings.
I notice he wasn’t the one who actually pointed it out- is “bigger” somehow less insulting than ‘fat’?
As I said to Todd, you do not know what you are talking about. I *gained weight on purpose* to help regulate my hormones. If you don’t understand it, then maybe you should go read some of Matt Stone’s blog.
If you just want to complain about the fact that I’ve gained weight then, yeah you don’t get it and you’re not bothering to do your research — and that’s ignorance.
Please do a google search for 180 Degree Health and spend some time reading on that site before you comment again.
That’s the price you pay for attempting to profit from celebrity- people will be critical- as they should. You should be a shining beacon for what you’re promoting, and people who want to lose weight don’t see you that way.
Again, go read Matt Stone’s blog.
Calling me greedy and focused on profits is a personal attack which has nothing to do with the issues at hand.
There’s no question that some of Todd’s posts felt trollish,
21 posts in a matter of a few days? Calling me fat?
Yeah, OK, bye-bye. “What part don’t you understand, the BUH or the bye? BUH-bye!”
but some of them contained some valuable nuggets of information and some thoughtful debate- do you think it actually hurt him that you deleted them? Nah, it only hurts the people reading your blog.
Maybe Todd should start his own blog. He can say whatever he wants.
If he can make his points in my comments without harranguing people and making personal attacks against people, then he can post on here. But he could not do that, so he’s gone.
No doubt you can and should do what you want with your own blog… so if ‘small and petty’ is what you’re going for, keep on trucking. In your own words, “more power to you”. If the number of comments in a blog is how trolling is defined, my notifications show more than 150 from you alone. Perhaps you’re trolling your own blog… ahem.
Nope, just responding to the comments, which is what I’ve always done on this blog, in the 4 years that I have been posting.
For FREE, I might add.
If I really were as greedy as you say, I would not bother to answer the comments. I don’t make any money from it.
After this debacle about your misrepresentation of Paleo based on wiki’s definition, haven’t you learned yet that wikipedia is a TERRIBLE resource to cite?)
If I take out the Wikipedia link, people still have the same idea about Paleo.
Again, the post is 10 reasons *I* am not paleo. If you don’t agree, that’s fine. It’s my opinion.
@Kenny
We buy organic corn tortillas and we fry them in coconut oil. Every week.
If insulin cycling makes you feel alive, by all means, do it!
I guess I kind of know what you mean by that but whatever — I’m jut going to eat what I want.
If you think primal diners don’t eat potatoes, bananas, fruit, honey or chocolate, think again.
I never said primal. I said paleo.
I don’t get how any primal or paleo people can justify chocolate. It’s highly processed.
And I don’t eat 6-11 servings of grain a day. Just because I said I eat grains, doesn’t mean I eat that much.
But if someone does, that’s totally fine. I really don’t believe in dietary dogma.
For what it’s worth, I’m finding this weight/attractiveness thing appalling. I know I’ve not posted here before and it’s not like you know me or anything, but I just have to say this is awful.
Fine, these people don’t want their bodies to look like your body looks. But why on earth say it to you? Just… don’t follow your advice. Their argument seems to be “I don’t want to look like you because I think you look too fat,” which is silly.
For one, would they look at a hairdresser and say “Your hair is hideous. Don’t touch me”? Or would they just quietly make an appointment with someone else? I mean, there ways to handle this without being rude, and “WELL YOU TALKED ABOUT FOOD” is not adequate reasoning. And it’s not really honest, either. It’s not that you talked about food, it’s that you talked about it on the internet. And for some, the internet is the Wild West so anything goes. It’s so easy to lose sight of the person on the other side of the screen. At least, I hope that’s the internet factor making them rude. I hope they aren’t going into restaurants, looking at the chef, and calling him fat.
Third, they’re making the ridiculous assumption that eating like person X wil make your body look like person X’s body. I don’t want my body to look like some Paleo bodies, some vegan bodies, some SAD bodies, some any-diet-ever bodies. And guess what? Mine probably won’t. It will look like my body on that diet because not all bodies look the same on any given diet. You can influence it, sure, but plenty of people who eat carbs have flat stomachs. There are chubby vegans. Heck, there are even entries on Paleo blogs like Ancestralize Me and Nom Nom Paleo talking about how women on Paleo “aren’t, well, quite so lean,” to quote Nom Nom. Do all Paleo women have the terrifying extra 15 lbs of weight? No, of course not. But some do, because bodies are different.
And I can’t find it now, but at least one person was actually directly talking about your body in terms of attractiveness. And they don’t see how that’s rude and awful? To act like their personal preference should ever have an effect on you? I know people love to act like there is science behind attractiveness, but let’s get real. Take any person on the planet: Some will be attracted to them, some won’t. Hell, I met a guy who thought Catherine Zeta Jones was homely. Does that give him leave to write to her and make sure she knows that? When she’s making her living by being publicly good-looking? Of course not. That would be kind of insane to do.
Sorry I wrote a novel on this, my mind is just blown that people are being such jerks and then acting like they can’t possibly see how it’s rude, inappropriate, and even illogical.
MedB:
You make a good point about the hairdresser, but when is the last time you came across a hairdresser blogging about how her hair is best and your hair is silly, expensive, restrictive, etc? You better believe the product of her hairdressing would be up for discussion.
The same goes for the chef, if he blogs about his food being more nutritious or ideal for those trying to lose weight, his weight is fair game. The same would go for someone like Suzie Orman, would you take financial advice from someone in debt?
This post was the first attack, if I ate Paleo I’d be offended too- as it is, I’m embarrassed. If each of her claims ended with “for me”, that might have made all the difference, but as she says she never followed that diet, it is just a giant bash followed by dozens of defensive comments saying she didn’t mean to bash anyone.
@Medb
Wow, thank you.
And I can’t find it now, but at least one person was actually directly talking about your body in terms of attractiveness.
That’s because I deleted the comment. This is my blog, after all, and I should not have to have the comments defiled with insults and personal attacks against me (or anyone else for that matter).
I completely agree with you. Most of these people, people I don’t even know, would never have the cajones to say these hateful things to my face.
There’s a thing, it’s called basic manners and common decency. I guess many of these folks have not heard of it.
PricerParent –
I think some of her anti-Paleo arguments don’t hold water, but I have to say I feel like insulting her body is bringing a gun to a slap fight. She says “I think your diet is impractical because it takes a lot of storage space” so people say “Ur fat”? No. Calling her “fat” or “not attractive” is an inappropriate response, even if she did upset them.
I get that she’s talking about food so some body stuff is relevant. The thing is, appearance preferences are way, way too subjective. So you don’t like this hypothetical hairdresser’s hair. Clearly she does. Clearly some other people do, too. Why do you feel like you absolutely have to publicly state that your preference is objectively correct and she is ugly? She called your method silly, she didn’t call your hair ugly. Cheeseslave didn’t say “Paleo women look mannish” or “Paleo women are not lean enough.” So why be all “Yeah, well, you’re fat so I don’t have to listen to you”?
There are many other options, like ignoring her blog, or saying “I tried that method and I didn’t like the results” or “Please don’t insult my preferred methods. They work for me” or “I think my methods are perfectly convenient.” People said those things and that’s great. I have no objection to disagreeing. What’s distasteful is pretending like she’s objectively bad or unappealing physically for not conforming to someone’s subjective preferences. Especially when it’s in response to such nuclear insults like “I find that diet too restrictive” and “Your history is incorrect.”
@PricerParent
The same goes for the chef, if he blogs about his food being more nutritious or ideal for those trying to lose weight, his weight is fair game.
There are many things that cause weight gain.
For example, overeating. Or low thyroid function. You can eat a super strict low carb and/or low calorie diet and STILL not lose any weight if you’re hypothyroid.
Saying my diet is wrong because I have put on a few extra pounds — which I did this spring ON PURPOSE to help balance my hormones — is not only absurd, but it’s rude.
PricerParent –
And just to kind of illustrate what I mean, yes, I might take financial advice from someone who’s in debt. If it’s a professional financial advisor with a good track record who still has some student loan debt? Absolutely. It’d be ridiculous to say “I can’t listen to you, you’re still paying Yale back.” I’m sure there are other situations where debt is not a sign of financial irresponsibility. Similarly, I think it’s silly to look only at weight as a sign of someone’s wisdom about food. It’s not a perfect analogy, but I think it’s safe to say that going directly to “I think your body is ugly” when someone says they think your diet is too limiting about foods they enjoy is pretty awful.
@Medb
Yes, disagreeing with me is totally fine. Making personal attacks is out of line. And I also deleted PricerParent’s comment for that reason.
I was just listening to a podcast about thyroid function from thyroid expert Chris Kresser- according to him, data shows that low thyroid does NOT cause weight gain- he also says if a person gains weight after switching to a higher carb diet, it’s because they’re overeating– that adding more carbs is all that’s necessary, but that the individual should cut some of the fat and protein so weight gain doesn’t occur. You keep saying I should read Matt Stone, and I have, but he isn’t a thyroid expert- and Chris Kresser is.
If you want folks to respect your advice about diet- you should specifically state that you’re not following the diet you promote- or that the diet you promote will correct your thyroid and may make you gain weight.
Some one above mentioned quoting comments and then deleting them. Hey, if you don’t want a comment on your blog, by all means you should delete it. But it’s just not cool to take pieces out of context and delete the rest.
I was just listening to a podcast about thyroid function from thyroid expert Chris Kresser- according to him, data shows that low thyroid does NOT cause weight gain- he also says if a person gains weight after switching to a higher carb diet, it’s because they’re overeating– that adding more carbs is all that’s necessary, but that the individual should cut some of the fat and protein so weight gain doesn’t occur. You keep saying I should read Matt Stone, and I have, but he isn’t a thyroid expert- and Chris Kresser is.
If you want folks to respect your advice about diet- you should specifically state that you’re not following the diet you promote- or that the diet you promote will correct your thyroid and may make you gain weight.
Some one above mentioned quoting comments and then deleting them. Hey, if you don’t want a comment on your blog, by all means you should delete it. But it’s just not cool to take pieces out of context and delete the rest.
cheeseslave –
Manners! Seriously! They don’t disappear because it’s the internet!
I don’t know. This whole thing is bizarre to me. I really don’t see where you were particularly inflammatory, and it’s really freaking me out that adults seem to think calling you ugly is not only fine, but the proper response.
At any rate, try not to let it get you down too much. You’re fine. Even if the extra pounds weren’t on purpose, I do not see the big deal. If that’s not someone’s preference for their own body, that’s fine. But it’s bodies and food. There’s no reason to turn it into a “one true way” war. So more power to you, and I mean that sincerely.
Chris Kessler isn’t a thyroid expert, either. He just likes to think he is. The man’s an acupuncturist. He’s not even a licensed M.D. His nutritional MO is just to regurgitate what ever other paleo “expert” spouts off.
I really wish people would get off the-one-size-fits-all diet bandwagon.
I also got disgusted with Todd and his weight-based insults. None of that is called for, ever. Not only is that a personal insult, but weight and health have nothing to do with one another. I’m a follower and believer in the Health at Every Size movement, and I’m not down with that kind of nonsense.
This blog has NEVER been about weight-loss. It’s about eating well and promoting health through food. That would be HEALTH, not weight-loss. This is not a diet and fitness blog. We don’t diet around here; we eat, and we don’t feel guilty about it either.
@Pricer Parent
I was just listening to a podcast about thyroid function from thyroid expert Chris Kresser- according to him, data shows that low thyroid does NOT cause weight gain-
Which podcast is that? Weight gain and low metabolism is a well-known symptom of low thyroid. That’s common knowledge.
You keep saying I should read Matt Stone, and I have, but he isn’t a thyroid expert- and Chris Kresser is.
I think both Matt Stone and Chris Kresser are very smart people who have lots of excellent info on hormone health.
If you want folks to respect your advice about diet- you should specifically state that you’re not following the diet you promote- or that the diet you promote will correct your thyroid and may make you gain weight.
I’m not following the diet I promote? Sorry but I don’t understand what you are saying.
I’ve always been an advocate of cheese, bacon, butter, raw milk as well as sourdough and sprouted bread and other properly prepared grains. I’ve never waivered on that.
I did cut way down on grains and starches, as I was swayed by paleo and low-carb blogs, books and podcasts. I wanted to lose the baby weight I had gained after my pregnancy. All that did was make it HARDER for me to lose weight and make my thryoid worse.
Now that I’m eating a high-carb diet, the weight is falling off (2 pounds per week) and I’m not even trying. And my body temperature is a steady 98.6.
Some one above mentioned quoting comments and then deleting them. Hey, if you don’t want a comment on your blog, by all means you should delete it. But it’s just not cool to take pieces out of context and delete the rest.
If people don’t want their comments deleted then (1) no trolling (2) no personal attacks, and so on. (See comment guidelines above)
The comments here have been pasted into the thread I mentioned and not a single one says anything even close to “I think your body is ugly”. You can’t see what the comments said because Cheeseslave deleted them, so you’re extrapolating. She also specifically states that she didn’t gain any weight and then says she gained it on purpose. The comments Matt made didn’t specifically say she was fat either, they said that if a diet makes a person fat, you have question the validity of that diet. The fact is, “fat” is such a provocative term these days that people automatically assume you’re telling them they’re ugly. Fat is fat… ugly is ugly. (Before my comment gets deleted, I’m not calling anyone here fat or ugly.)
If you were truly familiar with Kresser you’d know that he isn’t in any way a proponent of paleo/primitive/caveman. Also, the appeal to authority based on degrees isn’t helpful. He’s an expert because he is– because he heals people’s thyroid. Not because he has an MD after his name. Sally Fallon Morell doesn’t have any letters after her name either, but few would argue that she isn’t an expert.
@Roxanne
This blog has NEVER been about weight-loss. It’s about eating well and promoting health through food. That would be HEALTH, not weight-loss. This is not a diet and fitness blog. We don’t diet around here; we eat, and we don’t feel guilty about it either.
Amen, sister!
PricerParent –
Someone did have a pretty long comment about how she was “unattractive.” I distinctly remember that the person did use the exact term “unattractive.” I can’t remember the name, sorry, and it’s since been deleted.
@Pricer Parent
The comments here have been pasted into the thread I mentioned and not a single one says anything even close to “I think your body is ugly”.
You are pretty new to this thread. There were lots of comments that I received and have since deleted — so you would not have gotten email notifications for those.
She also specifically states that she didn’t gain any weight and then says she gained it on purpose. The comments Matt made didn’t specifically say she was fat either, they said that if a diet makes a person fat, you have question the validity of that diet.
Yes I gained it on purpose to help bring up my body temperature and help my thyroid function better. It worked. I went from low 97s to 98.6.
And now that I’m not purposefully overeating anymore, the weight is falling off — 8 pounds lost in June without trying at all. And I’m eating a high-carb diet.
Medb
I just did a search for the word “unattractive”, and the only comment that comes up for it is yours. Unless it was spelled incorrectly, it wasn’t used in this thread anywhere. The person posting the comments has been getting them in email since the beginning of the thread. Aren’t you subscribed to this thread? It looks like you were one of the first commenters? If so, a search of your own email would turn up the word if it was used.
This applies to anyone else who is complaining that Cheeseslave is being called “fat” or “unattractive”- there have to be many with email notifications, so just do a search for the words. You’ll see, they don’t come up.
PricerParent –
The first comment in this thread is from June 20th. I posted something and subscribed to the thread on July 7th.
The “unattractive” comment is one that was deleted before I subscribed. I can’t prove it was there, unfortunately. All I can say is that it was.
The thread is being re-posted in its entirety- the very first comment reads-
Is that the first comment here? It currently contains close to 900 comments. I assume that one of the first people who commented is responsible for the repost.
There are also 33 comments from Todd- and you only mention 20-something, so I believe they’re all there. There is discussion about you appearing to have gained weight and a comment about believing it’s OK to ask someone why they’ve gained fat- but not a single one that calls you unattractive or fat. I guess that’s the downside of deleting comments, you don’t have any evidence once you do.
This one. All Things Thyroid (Thyroid 101) | Chris Kresser
I’ve read in several places throughout your blog (and the facebook page that comes up in google) that eating the diet you promote won’t make people fat. If you’re gaining weight on purpose as you say, then telling people that you’re over-eating on purpose is kind of important if you’re going to remain credible. A diet isn’t just the food that we eat, but how much and when. If people believe that the diet you promote will make them want to overeat, why would they follow it?
The thread is being re-posted in its entirety- the very first comment reads-
Is that the first comment here? It currently contains close to 900 comments. I assume that one of the first people who commented is responsible for the repost.
There are also 33 comments from Todd- and you only mention 20-something, so I believe they’re all there. There is discussion about you appearing to have gained weight and a comment about believing it’s OK to ask someone why they’ve gained fat- but not a single one that calls you unattractive or fat. I guess that’s the downside of deleting comments, you don’t have any evidence once you do.
This one. All Things Thyroid (Thyroid 101) | Chris Kresser
I’ve read in several places throughout your blog (and the facebook page that comes up in google) that eating the diet you promote won’t make people fat. If you’re gaining weight on purpose as you say, then telling people that you’re over-eating on purpose is kind of important if you’re going to remain credible. A diet isn’t just the food that we eat, but how much and when. If people believe that the diet you promote will make them want to overeat, why would they follow it?
Cheeseslave,
At a client’s prompting, I’ve been listening to The Paleo Solution podcasts for the last few weeks (there are 163!). I was pleasantly surprised to learn that Chris Kresser is a frequent guest as I have tremendous respect for him as a die-hard fact-checker. It was interesting to hear him state that fermentative flora don’t reach the gut as I’ve recommended raw ferments to my patients for restoring pro-biotic populations, so I’m in the midst of doing my own research on the subject. Something else that intrigued me was a new program he’s been developing for individuals with unusual health issues (thyroid dysfunction, gut permeability, autoimmune) where he recommends a heart-healthy diet and lifestyle, one that’s based on ‘paleo/primal’ and that when it comes to potential thyroid issues, that only a handful of people are prone to having them and that they are exacerbated by an extended very low carb diet, but that the primal diet isn’t low carb unless you make it that way. He went on to say that even so, a single high carb “re-feed” a week was more than enough to prevent impairment in those people.
I’m not as familiar with his positions as I’d like to be so I’m going to follow-up by reading what I can find of his after the holidays. It does strike me though that you seemed to think Kresser was anti-low carb and even anti-Paleo- and you’ve mentioned having tremendous respect for his thyroid work- but he doesn’t appear to be either.
Maybe we both have something to learn.
Brigit, RD
Medb: Your first comment shows up on July 5th, and the conversation everyone is up in arms about took place that same day *after* your comment. This doesn’t mean that you actually got those notifications, I’m merely saying that if you have those comments from Todd in your email, THOSE are the only comments that address Cheeseslave’s weight.
Medb: Your first comment shows up on July 5th, and the conversation everyone is up in arms about took place that same day *after* your comment. This doesn’t mean that you actually got those notifications, I’m merely saying that if you have those comments from Todd in your email, THOSE are the only comments that address Cheeseslave’s weight.
–from Todd that is. I also don’t find the word “unattractive” anywhere in over 800 comments.
@Pricer
There are also 33 comments from Todd- and you only mention 20-something, so I believe they’re all there. There is discussion about you appearing to have gained weight and a comment about believing it’s OK to ask someone why they’ve gained fat- but not a single one that calls you unattractive or fat. I guess that’s the downside of deleting comments, you don’t have any evidence once you do.
This is what Todd wrote: “You know what else is attractive? A healthy body… something Cheeseslave does NOT appear to have.”
He’s saying I’m not attractive and not healthy. So yeah, rude, and incorrect. I’m very healthy. I may have a few extra pounds since I had a baby. How does that make me unhealthy?
This one. All Things Thyroid (Thyroid 101) | Chris Kresser
Thanks! I’ll check it out.
I’ve read in several places throughout your blog (and the facebook page that comes up in google) that eating the diet you promote won’t make people fat. If you’re gaining weight on purpose as you say, then telling people that you’re over-eating on purpose is kind of important if you’re going to remain credible. A diet isn’t just the food that we eat, but how much and when. If people believe that the diet you promote will make them want to overeat, why would they follow it?
The diet I eat does not make people fat.
I HAVE publicly posted on a number of occasions that I was “RRARFing” this spring — Matt Stone’s term for rehabilitative rest and aggressive refeeding. He advocates overeating for a period of time and gaining weight in order to help your hormones balance. As I said, it worked; I went from low 97s to 98.6.
Since I stopped overeating around June 1st, I lost 8 pounds (2 pounds per week) without even trying. Eating a high carb full-fat diet. Normal foods like sprouted bread, raw milk, grass-fed cheese and butter, pizza, nachos made with tortillas fried in coconut oil. I haven’t written a whole blog post about this yet but I will.
Honestly, I would rather have a few extra pounds and be HEALTHY than be slimmer and have a poorly functioning metabolism and all that goes with it: cold hands and feet, low sex drive, hair that’s falling out, poor immunity, etc. I definitely have noticed a difference in my immunity since I boosted my body temp and hormonal function… for example, my daughter brought a cold home from daycare. Normally I would have picked it up and it would have run its course. My husband got the cold and was sick for days. Instead, I just had a little frog in my throat and a little extra phlegm for a few days — and that was it. It barely phased me, even though I’m working 12-16 hour days right now.
However, I predict that I will continue to lose weight until my body has settled at where it wants to be. The good news — I’m still at 98.6, which I had not ever attained since I had the baby 5 years ago.
The bottom line: This is working for me. That’s all I’m saying. If it upsets people, I’m very sorry for them. But I won’t apologize for writing about what is helping me — in the hopes that it may also help others.
Low carb was a disaster for me and there are so many folks out there acting like low carb is the Holy Grail. It is not, not for many of us. If it works for you, that’s wonderful! I am just sharing that eating grains and a higher carb diet is good for me. Overeating and excessive rest also helped (RRARF). And others may also find that it works for them as well.
Very true, and I already said as much. That doesn’t change what you’re doing in stealing a sound-bite though. If their comment is so bad that it deserves deletion, then delete it all rather than benefiting from a piece of it. It’s a bit like the “If you don’t play the game my way, I’m going to take my ball and go home.” argument. Yes you certainly can, but that kind of behavior smacks of immaturity, and based on what I’ve read of you, I don’t think that’s who you are.
I’m just marking peoples comments as spam — so they all get lumped into spam when I do that. I’m super busy running the blog network and can’t keep up with all of these comments.
PricerParent –
If the conversation everyone is up in arms did not include the word “unattractive,” then that’s not the conversation I’m saying did include it. There were multiple comments and conversations that I objected to. Todd’s comments were not the only comments. I do not have any comments from him in my email.
Was July 5 when I posted the comment about when ice cream was invented? My mistake. I didn’t hit the “subscribe to this thread” checkbox when I posted that one.
I’m not sure what else to say. You say it’s not in your source, I believe you. I know I read it, and I know cheeseslave’s been deleting comments, but I can’t prove to you that I did. If you think I’m mistaken, fine. The vast majority of what I said still applies.
My point was simply that once a person is “triggered” they often see what they expect to see rather than what is written.
PricerParent –
I’m actually asking because I’m starting to feel like I was hallucinating – Where do you have all the comments, including deleted ones, starting June 20th? Is it in your email, or do you have a link?
They’re being posted in an invitation only Yahoo group so I can’t link you. I can copy and paste, but that would put them back in Cheeseslave’s blog. You’d think that SHE would have them, right? She must get notifications for every comment- so it should be easy for her to identify them, if she chooses.
@Medb
You are not hallucinating. See my comment above to Pricer.
I pulled up Todd’s rude comment in my spam folder, which is where it belongs.
cheeseslave -
Thank you for posting that quote from Todd! Glad I’m not going crazy.
@Pricer
LOL! Wow, people really have too much time on their hands!
@Medb
You’re welcome!
@cheeseslave
Normally I wouldn’t split hairs, but for every paleo person on this thread that said your assumptions were incorrect and that you offended and insulted them, you argued that you didn’t directly insult anyone. Todd said you don’t appear to be healthy. Your actual health isn’t something he was commenting on, but rather your appearance of health to him. He also didn’t say you are unattractive, it’s something you extrapolated when he said a healthy body is attractive. How can you take offense over the very same thing you’ve done throughout both your post and the comments?
Then why did *you* gain weight eating it? If you’ve been deliberately overeating, overeating is part of your diet.
I don’t know what that means yet- but since your blog is public and no one needs to subscribe to read it, why assume that people know something like this? If you want to avoid the “but why have you gained weight?” comments, wouldn’t it be simpler (and less potentially offensive) to restate it once with the entry than to repeat it in comments DOZENS of times where the next person who stumbles in may not see it? You state that you consider cheese, butter, eggs, bacon, etc. healthy, over and over so why not?
I think this is amazing! I’m really very happy for you. I don’t think it has much to do with what we’re discussing, but I’m always happy to hear a success story.
I think that most people would, but we’re all different. Most of us don’t have to choose- most of us can be quite healthy and also be lean. So why suggest there are only two options?
I hope this for you as well.
No one wants you to apologize for what works for you- they want you to apologize for suggesting that THEY (not you) are stupid and foolish for eating a diet that happens to work well for them, even though not for you. The fact that you still can’t see that is so disappointing.
Cheeseslave, you took the time to copy, paste and reply to comments and then you deleted them, something that someone to busy to pay attention doesn’t do.
“The bottom line: This is working for me. That’s all I’m saying. If it upsets people, I’m very sorry for them. But I won’t apologize for writing about what is helping me — in the hopes that it may also help others.”
I don’t believe that people are upset that your diet is working for you. I think it’s more that they are offended by the demeaning and elitist tone of your article. You don’t want people bashing your dietary choices, but you find it ok to bash the Paleo diet because it didn’t work for you. Lots of hypocrisy going on here. Sections entitled “Paleo Is Based On Fantasy”, “Paleo Is Impractical” and “Paleo Is A Waste Of Time and Energy” implies that the people who follow this diet are impractical fools that are wasting their time and energy living in a fantasy land. Maybe you didn’t intend it to come out this way, but it did. The people who it has helped understandably felt offended by you bashing the diet that has turned their lives around and understandably want to defend it just as you defend yours. No one is asking you to apologize for writing about what works for you. But they would like you to apologize for essentially dismissing and making fun of a diet that has worked for them. As PricerParent said before, perhaps if you had followed your statements with “for me” it probably could have avoided all the backlash.
@Pricer
The point is, lean doesn’t mean healthy necessarily and healthy doesn’t necessarily mean lean. I’m aiming for excellent health, even if I have to gain some weight (hopefully temporarily) in order to get there.
If people want to follow my blog and learn about why I did RRARFing and all of that, awesome, they can follow it. I can’t update every single blog post with, “Hey want to know why I gained a few extra pounds? I’ve been RRARfing, that’s why!”
If they want to make assumptions and judgements about me not knowing anything about me, they can also do that. But if they make rude comments, I’ll delete those comments.
Honestly I do not care whether this Todd guy thinks I appear healthy or attractive. I don’t even know him, and what he thinks is none of my business. I found the comment rude, so I deleted it. I can’t imagine anyone would EVER walk up to someone at a cocktail party and say, Hey, you appear unhealthy, and that’s really unattractive.
If he wouldn’t say it to me in person, he should not say it on this blog. If he doesn’t like my blog, why read it?
I replied to comments first an then I deleted them (spammed them). I didn’t bother removing my own comments.
Fair enough. Which of these statements would you comfortably say to a friend following a paleo diet?
- “how old is old enough? Homo habilis? Homo erectus?
- “I ask you, do we really need to go back 1 million years ago to eat a healthy diet?
- “Do we really need to throw the baby out with the bathwater?”
- “I think that is a load of hogwash.”
- “do you really need to eat like Australopithecus Afarensis to feel like you’re eating a healthy diet? Have you seen a picture of Australopithecus Afarensis lately?”
@Rebs
Thanks for your comment.
I don’t believe that people are upset that your diet is working for you. I think it’s more that they are offended by the demeaning and elitist tone of your article. You don’t want people bashing your dietary choices, but you find it ok to bash the Paleo diet because it didn’t work for you.
I didn’t bash paleo just because it didn’t work for me. I think it is an elitist fad diet. If people don’t agree, that’s fine. This is my opinion.
I wrote what I truly believe. I do think a lot of people who are advocating a paleo diet are convincing people that it they need to go to extremes, and I do not believe the extremes are necessary. Not just for me, but for anyone.
YES, some people need to do an extremely restricted diet, such as the GAPS diet, for a period of time. I’ve seen amazing results with kids with autism, etc. But I don’t think it’s reasonable or necessary for most people to go to that extreme, and they certainly don’t need to follow a diet like that forever.
Again, my opinion. If you don’t agree, that’s fine.
I believe that a strict paleo diet is expensive, impractical, etc. I don’t think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater to be healthy.
I’m sorry if you don’t agree and I’m sorry if people got offended.
Hey, I’d say the same thing about the vegan diet. I could have just as easily written a post called “Top 10 Reasons I’m not Vegan”. And guess what, all the paleo folks would have left me glowing comments and the vegans would have been pissed. The point is, I think they’re both extreme diets and I am not an advocate of that kind of dietary dogma.
@Pricer
Here’s the BIG difference. I didn’t go on a paleo blog and write those things. I wrote it on MY BLOG.
And yes, I have had cocktails with lovely paleo friends before and NO I did not say, and nor would I ever say any of those things to them.
Should I censor myself so that I can make everyone happy? Should I keep my mouth shut on my blog because some people take offense?
I’ve had people comment that I’m crazy for feeding my daughter butter and that she will die of heart disease. Don’t even get me started on the vaccine issue. Does that mean I should keep my mouth shut because “they” don’t like what I write?
As I always say, I gotta be me and I gotta write from my heart. If people get mad at me and don’t like what I say, that’s all right. But if they make nasty comments, I’ll delete them.
@Rebs
Oh and by the way PLENTY of people bash my dietary choices every single day. All over the internet, as well as on my Facebook page, on my blog, etc. etc.
If that’s what they think, that’s their opinion.
@Cheesesalve
That’s true, but it’s akin to having paleo friends over to your home- these people are subscribers- they trust you… and you bashed them.
Just like you think Todd could have approached his beliefs about your weight differently, you could have approached this differently. It’s one thing to say, “I really like cheese” in a heading- this is all about you… but then to follow it up with a diatribe about how foolish paleo folks are for believing neolithic foods are unhealthy is all about them. No matter how you try and justify it, it was an attack or a core belief system.
It’s clearly not alright. You still seem confused by their upset.
It’s pretty clear to people reading blogs like this one that it serves as a platform from which to launch a business. Yes, the blog is free, but it serves you to have people feel welcome and I think you know this- happy, interested people will buy your product. You can do whatever you want to do in your blog though, no question.
At this point I don’t know whether you truly can’t see how you insulted people or if you’ve painted yourself into a corner and just can’t admit it. Either way, I suppose that you are going to learn anything from the experience, you will already have learned it, and there’s no point in harping.
I wish you and your readers the best.
PP
@Pricer
That’s true, but it’s akin to having paleo friends over to your home- these people are subscribers- they trust you… and you bashed them.
The vast majority of them were not subscribers. They were just coming over here from paleo blogs to read it. The vast majority were first time visitors.
Just like you think Todd could have approached his beliefs about your weight differently, you could have approached this differently. It’s one thing to say, “I really like cheese” in a heading- this is all about you… but then to follow it up with a diatribe about how foolish paleo folks are for believing neolithic foods are unhealthy is all about them. No matter how you try and justify it, it was an attack or a core belief system.
I don’t care what Todd’s beliefs are about my weight. I would not go on someone else’s blog and tell them they are fat or unattractive or unhealthy. Period. Full stop.
I do think that there is no evidence that neolithic foods are unhealthy. That’s my opinion. And I expressed it.
If you don’t agree, like I said in the original post, let’s agree to disagree.
I don’t expect everyone to agree with me, and I don’t write blog posts to make other people happy. If people don’t like this blog, they don’t have to read it. I don’t personally read low carb paleo blogs because I don’t enjoy them. Nor do I read vegan blogs. Likewise, it is your option not to read this blog.
Beautifully said, Pricer.
Cheeseslave: You are awesome. Based on people I know who eat Paleo, the Paleo adherents are extremely narrow minded. They consistently take offense when anyone disagrees with the paleo logic or lack thereof. Bottomline Observations I have made from being around Paleo maniacs: 1) Paleo diet is not for everyone, but no one will admit it; 2) The diet is loosely based on theories that cannot be proven; many folks have problems, and they have to focus on “fixes;” 3) Although many Paleo and non-paleo healthy eaters pay strict attention to what they ingest, most people do not scrutinize their diet to the extreme. On low-carb, if they are not observant, they can run short on certain essentials like potassium. 4) Not all, but many Paleo adherents also do Crossfit, and end up with Rhabdo due to too much extreme exercise and too little carbs to support it. 5) This practice [paleo/crossfit mania] is dangerous to anyone’s health, however, the followers will not admit it!!!!! It is my observation among a small circle of friends that they would rather die, or see someone else die, than admit it.
So, thank you again for an opportunity to share my concern somewhere other than a Paleo/Crossfit website, because that is totally non-productive.
Ginger Brown,
Paleo is very popular in the CrossFit world, but CrossFit is not very poplar in the Paleo world. Originally CrossFit was closely tied to The Zone diet. I have literally DOZENS of patients that follow some form of primitive diet, but only one CrossFit enthusiast. Of course, I’d never claim that my personal experience is representative of an entire group, but I’m betting that as a dietician, it’s more representative than yours.
Rhadbdo is an incredibly rare condition that occurs when muscle tissue breaks down and cells get into the bloodstream- myoglobin in the blood can cause kidney failure. It is seen most often in long distance hikers or in places that are very dry and the people working out get severely dehydrated. The incidence among Crossfitters specifically is quite tiny.
Brigit, RD
I know what rhabdo is. Close friends, among others in the paleo/crossfit crowd, have had it. So either the population I’m seeing is inordinately susceptible or the incidence of rhabdo among Crossfitters is not “quite tiny.” ALL of them are Xfitters.
Ginger,
My description of rhabdo was really for anyone else who came along and read the thread, I don’t doubt that you know what it is. However, there is a tendency for people to be alarmist about maladies that are actually incredibly rare. The one I hear most about the dreaded “ketoacidosis” that low-carb opponents are deathly afraid of, even though it occurs almost exclusively in Type I diabetics.
I cannot speak to the population you are seeing, perhaps they make up the entirety of ALL rhabdo occurrences among cross-fitters, who can say? But your experience doesn’t represent the whole picture. Rhabdo is incredibly uncommon to begin with, and occurs mostly in accident victims, addicts and alcoholics. The occurrences in cross-fitters are an even tinier percentage of that. The NCBI lists 11 potential causes of rhabdo, and physical exertion is 8th on the list. (Severe exertion, such as marathon running or calisthenics) So while I don’t discount your experience, I don’t put weight in it either.
I hope that you can understand that pointing to an occurrence and saying “but they’re ALL cross-fitters” isn’t the same as saying all cross-fitters get rhabdo. They’re all human too, they’re all athletes. Your correlation model is quite skewed.
Brigit, RD
["I know what rhabdo is. Close friends, among others in the paleo/crossfit crowd, have had it. So either the population I’m seeing is inordinately susceptible or the incidence of rhabdo among Crossfitters is not “quite tiny.” ALL of them are Xfitters."]
Ginger,
(I think I’ve figured out that this forum uses basic html tags for formatting so I’m going to give that a try.)
Below is data from the paper titled Exertional Rhabdomyolysis Early Recognition Is Key- Thomas P. Brown, DO- THE PHYSICIAN AND SPORTSMEDICINE – VOL 32 – NO. 4
I’m hoping this data can provide a more rounded picture.
Brigit, RD
Cheeseslave,
I am genuinely interested in the answer to the question posed above. I’ve written an email to the WAPF posing the same question. If you don’t know the answer yourself, are you able to direct me to a specific person within the WAPF who may be able to provide us with an informed response?
Thank you in advance.
Brigit, RD
I just finished a Whole30. I don’t feel any different than when I ate high sugar foods. I did lose 8 pounds and eating a lot of plant matter is healthy but this diet is definitey too restrictive for long term. I am adding legumes and reducing my meat intake stat.
In regards to the article. Hysterical. Sarcastic humor at it’s best. Lighten up all of you Paleo die hards. It’s a funny article. People can eat what they want.
you are sooo right allegra!
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