Can Good Nutrition Widen a Child’s Palate — Even After Birth?

Kate, 3 Years Old

We all know good nutrition will build a strong body and set a child up for good health. And if you've read Dr. Weston A. Price's book, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, you know that it is possible to actually widen the palate, or the jaw and facial structure, of a child — with the right diet.

According to Dr. Price, it is the fat soluble activators, vitamins A, D and K2 — found in foods like liver, pastured egg yolks, grass-fed cheese, butter and cream — that build proper bone structure — and prevent a narrow jaw and crooked teeth.

However, can you actually expand a child's palate after he or she is born? Or is it only possible when they are in utero?

This is a question I've been pondering lately. And serendipitously, I got my answer via my email inbox.

Read on.

Good Diet, Wide Face, Straight Teeth

I'm a total believer that a WAPF (Weston A. Price Foundation) diet during pregnancy can widen a child's palate. What I don't know is if it's possible to make an impact on older babies and children.

The photo above is of my 3-year-old daughter, Kate. When I posted it on my Facebook page recently, a reader commented about how wide her palate was, and how well-spaced her teeth were. This reader said that years ago she had lived in Nigeria where none of the children ever needed braces. She said that Kate's teeth and jaw looked just like the Nigerian children's.

I do see a difference between Kate's teeth and most other children her age. Most 3-year-old children have teeth that don't have much (if any) space in between. Kate's palate definitely seems wider.

I have always believed that the reason there is ample space between Kate's teeth is because I've been feeding her so well since she was a baby.

It most likely isn't due to what I ate before she was born. I didn't know how to eat to prepare my body for fertility. Before I had her, I ate as well as I could as a busy childless working person. But that's not saying a whole lot. Long hours, take-out lunches and dinners. And lots of coffee with 2% milk. I ate imported full-fat cheese, liver pâté, and meals rich in butter and cream when I'd go out for the occasional fancy dinner — but that was probably only once or twice a month.

What If You Miss the Boat on the Pre-conception Diet?

I was talking with a WAPF friend recently. Although she fully believes that facial structure can be perfected with the right diet, she said she does not believe that it is possible to widen a child's palate after they are born unless you do it with an appliance. She said she thought the palate was formed in the womb and that it was impossible to widen it after they are born without the help of orthodontics.

I didn't find the Weston A. Price Foundation until my daughter was 5 months old. Unfortunately I was not eating a traditional diet when she was conceived, nor did I eat traditional foods when she was in utero. If I had known about it, I certainly would have!

Needless to say, my friend's statement was shocking to me. Ever since I found the Weston A. Price Foundation, I have believed that it is possible to expand the palate without an appliance. I figured you may need an appliance in addition to the nutrient-dense diet, but that the diet would go a long way toward widening the palate.

Cod Liver Oil for High Cheekbones

After I found the Weston A. Price Foundation when Kate was a baby, I went into overdrive to make sure she was well-nourished. I nursed her as much as I could. Since I had low milk supply, I had to supplement with the raw milk formula. However, I was also eating a nutrient-dense diet in order to produce more nutritious breast milk.

I started giving her cod liver oil, and when she was 6 months old, I started feeding her the recommended WAPF solids — egg yolks and liver every day. I was trying to make up for lost time — since I knew she didn't get the nutrients she needed when she was in the womb.

Yes, Virginia, There is a Santa Claus!

I was really relieved to find the email below in my inbox. Someone had asked this very question to a group of other people in an email chain, and somehow I had been added to list.

The answer came from a mother named Karen:

Babies born to mothers who were not on this diet during pregnancy may be born with a tendency towards dental deformities, but as long as they are still growing, you have an opportunity for great influence with the diet. I discovered this diet over 3 years ago when my kids were 5 and 7 years old.

We have been following a Nourishing Traditions diet with cod liver oil and high vitamin butter oil ever since, and I am now noticing improvements in my kids dental health. My older daughter's palate is widening and her adult teeth are coming in not above, but outside of her baby teeth. Our dentist, who is a biological dentist and orthopedic orthodontist agreed with me that this is a good thing.

I believe that if my daughter wasn't on this diet, then her adult teeth would probably be coming in right above her baby teeth (reflecting a more narrow palate), so the widening is very encouraging and shows me that this diet works. My daughter's teeth are less crowded now than they were before we started the diet. You can see it in the x-rays.

We take Green Pastures fermented cod liver oil and high vitamin butter oil every day, as well as emulsified vitamin D3 (from Biotics Research Corporation) and a typical Nourishing Traditions diet.

Isn't that awesome? Her teeth are actually coming in outside of her baby teeth! If that's not proof, I don't know what is.

Kate's Diet

Kate is still on the fermented cod liver oil and I've now added the high vitamin butter oil. She won't eat liver anymore, although I fed it to her pretty much daily for the first year she was on solids. See this post of a typical meal she ate as a baby: chicken livers and sardines! I'm trying to think of ways to hide the raw beef liver capsules (any ideas, anyone?).

Eating Dinner

I do give her plenty of grass-fed cream, butter and cheese on a daily basis, plus lots of raw milk and pastured eggs. She also loves soups and sauces made with fish or chicken stock.

She doesn't much like meat but when she does eat it, I try to make sure it's pastured. She won't eat seafood like she used to as a baby. She used to eat raw oysters (see the photo below) like they were going out of style — now she won't touch them. (I'm sure this is a temporary phase.) But recently she has very much enjoyed eating king crab with drawn butter as well as shrimp.

Kate and Daddy Eating Raw Oysters

She eats grains, but we eat only sprouted and/or fermented/soaked grains at home (we make exceptions when we are out to dinner or visiting friends or family). And never without butter and other good fats!

While she used to love kefir, sauerkraut and pickles as a baby, she won't eat them anymore. But she will drink kombucha and kefir smoothies, and she loves yogurt sweetened with maple syrup. And I've been giving her Biokult (a probiotic — see my resources page) since she was 1-year-old.

This year I'll be taking her to her first dentist appointment and we'll get the definitive scoop on how her jaw is developing. If we need to do an appliance, we will.

But I'm so happy to have gotten this email from Karen who is having great success with the diet (she told me her kids may have to use appliances, too, in addition to the diet).

Read More about How to Eat Prior to, During and After Pregnancy

Click here to read more about the fertility diet that the Weston A. Price Foundation recommends for pregnant and nursing mothers.

Share Your Thoughts Below

What are your experiences with widening your children's palates? Did you get a late start like I did? What kind of results have you seen?

Find Me Online

Ann Marie Michaels

I have 25 years of experience in digital and online media & marketing. I started my career in Silicon Valley and Los Angeles, working at some of the world’s top ad agencies. In 2007, after my first child was born, I started this little food blog which I grew to over 250K monthly unique website visitors and over 350K social media followers. For nearly 15 years, I've helped my audience of mostly moms and women 25-65 cook for their families and live a healthier lifestyle.

 The year after I started the blog, I founded a blog network in the health & wellness space called Village Green Network. I started the company on my coffee table and bootstrapped the business to over $1.3 million in annual revenue within 5 years. During that time, I helped a number of our bloggers become six figure earners. After being censored on almost every social media platform for telling the After being censored on almost every social media platform from Facebook and Instagram to Pinterest and Twitter, and being deplatformed on Google, I am now deployed as a digital soldier, writing almost exclusively about politics on my blog Cheeseslave.com. Because who can think about food when we are fighting the second revolutionary war and third world war? Don't worry, there will be more recipes one day. After the war is over.

219 thoughts on “Can Good Nutrition Widen a Child’s Palate — Even After Birth?

  1. This is so interesting! Kate’s palate is wider than my Hannah’s (SAD diet during pregnancy, breastfed but I continued with a SAD until she started solids at a year) but Hannah’s is wider than the kids that we’re around here, even the ones who eat healthily but not WAP. Sam’s is still nice and wide, I love it πŸ™‚

  2. AnnMarie, thank you for this post. My son, 9 years old, has a fairly narrow palate, but we have been eating WAPF-style for the last 5 years, and taking off and on for most of those 5 years. I was on a low-fat diet prior to his conception, but thankfully my husband had me switch to full-fat milk during my pregnancy and when I was nursing him. He didn’t have any room between his baby teeth at all. So at 6 years old, I took him to see a functional orthodontist, who said at that point, it could go either way — his mouth could either grow to accommodate the teeth, or not — and that the best approach was to wait and see. We went back when he said, at 8 years of age, and he does recommend the palate expansion device when his upper canines have fallen out and the adult ones are halfway in. It’s interesting, though; I’ve noticed that between these visits, his adult teeth have come in, surprisingly, quite straight, despite the appearance of not having space initially.

    I will likely try the palate expansion device anyway, especially if he has any sort of overbite, because I believe it will have an effect on his facial structure that will make him less prone to sinus infection, etc. I was very struck by the pictures of the twins Dr. Price studied (can’t remember which issue of WT it was in) where one had traditional orthodontics, and the other had palate expansion. Their faces were so different after their treatment — the one having the palate expansion having such a healthier appearance. And the cost is so much less than traditional orthodontics!

    Anyway, I also have a daughter who is 6. I took Carlson’s CLO and coconut oil when I was pregnant with her, and was drinking lots of whole milk. Her face shape is totally different — it’s very round. She always had space between her baby teeth (but they seem exceptionally tiny, which I wonder might have happened from avoiding dairy while nursing her from dairy intolerance). Anyway, before her first baby teeth fell out, the adult ones came in *outside* of them! I was mortified. I felt like I had fallen off the CLO wagon (despite eating a very nutrient-dense diet), and was certain that maybe I was seeing something that wasn’t there in her beautiful wide face. So, I have a little hope now that things will be okay for her. If you have or find any information on the adult teeth coming in outside the baby teeth, I would love to see it. It’s amazing how big those adult teeth are — they came in and all the baby teeth pretty much slid over and all the space is now gone. I hope that I see the gentle and gradual expansion in her palate that I have seen in my son’s if we continue to take the cod liver oil.

    Sometimes I feel like a salmon swimming upstream with regard to dentistry — most dentists here assume that a kid will have to have orthodontic intervention since it is the norm, so it becomes necessary to actually have consults with orthodontists to get the full story.

    1. Swimming upstream? Why, what do you mean?

      Most parents believe that brushing with an industrial waste product/neurotoxin (fluoride) will save their kids from getting cavities. And they think crooked teeth are genetic. They think feeding kids egg yolks, butter and cream will give them heart attacks. And they think raw milk will kill them on the spot.

      Of course that’s what we’re all told to believe.

      Meanwhile we are bugging our kids to take their cod liver oil and we tell them they can have some bread but ONLY if they put enough butter on it. LOL!

      Swimming upstream, indeed!

      At least we are doing it together! So glad we are not alone on this journey (that’s the whole reason I started this blog!).

  3. Ann Marie, it is definitely NOT too late. I don’t even want to admit what I ate while I was pregnant with my first son, and I also had pretty significant digestive problems, so how much of the nutrients were even absorbed? His baby teeth were fine for the first few years, but then started to decay rapidly. They were so bad that he had to get 2 crowns when he was 6. Then I started to learn about NT and WAP and changed his diet. He is now 9 and several cavities (some of which developed when we did the GAPS diet and overdid the nuts) have healed themselves. His new teeth are coming in much stronger, and although the top 4 front teeth were looking crowded as they came in, his palate is still growing, and they are straightening themselves out. I’m making up for lost time by giving him vit. D3 supplements as well as K2 (Dr. Price’s x-factor vitamin). Our dentist confirmed that the palate continues to grow as the child grows. My other 2 children are 5 and 3 and My pregnancies with them were pre-WAP as well. However, their nose bridges are nice and wide, and their baby teeth are very well spaced. I just cringe when I see other kids with crowded baby teeth. When even the tiny baby teeth of a one-year-old are crowded, you know there are major orthodontics in their future!

    1. That is wonderful, Kaylin! Thanks so much for sharing.

      It’s funny because when my sister’s kids came to visit a year ago — when Kate was just turning 3 — one of them said, “Auntie, I think Kate’s going to need braces.”

      I said, “Why?”

      She said, “Because she has so much space between her teeth!”

      That was the moment I realized that Kate’s baby teeth didn’t look like other kids.

      1. I never really paid attention either. Great….now I’m going to be checking out the teeth of children everywhere I go…I know it! lol

  4. @Amy, you may want to consider also giving your son vit. D3 and K2 supplements, as CLO has some D3, but not very much.

    1. We use Green Pastures with added butter oil, and I do supplement some D3 in the winter. πŸ™‚ I like to say that it is like taking five or six other supplements as it has vitamin E, CoQ10 and is also probiotic since it is fermented — in addition to the A, D and K2!

    2. The CLO I give the kids is Blue Ice fermented, but I choose to give them extra vit. D3 for a couple of reasons. First, I was tested and was very vit. D deficient, which means the kids didn’t have a good start in utero, so I’m making up for lost time. Also, we live at a latitude that only give us 4 months of D-producing sunlight a year. I saw a big difference in my oldest son’s teeth in a short amount of time when I gave him extra D3, which was really necessary to avoid more dental work. And I give them the extra K2 partly to prevent D overdose. I don’t have a source for pastured lard for extra D, or natto for K2, and since we’ve been dealing with active decay, I have to do what I can! Someday when their D3 stores are up I may drop it. πŸ™‚

  5. Oh, this is sooo awesome of you to post this. I’m an adoptive mom, and so often I only read stuff about how to affect your child’s health in utero. I read and began implementing Nourishing Traditions when my son was a year old, He’s now18 months, and a very healthy, exceptionally strong and smart little boy. His teeth are still coming in, so the verdict is still out on the palate issue. If you come across any more info on this, I’d love to read about it! Thanks!

  6. This is so interesting! She is SO beautiful!!! I truly believe it certainly has an impact after birth and as the kiddos grow. Really exciting stuff. I wonder if you could get the liver into meatloaf, soup/stew, chili, breakfast egg/sausage muffins or the like. Could you cook it grated or sprinkled over roasts and let it sort of melt in? I’m by no means an organ meats expert, but we’re working on getting more in! πŸ™‚ Good luck!

    1. She used to eat liverwurst pretty regularly. I’m going to try to get her back to eating that.

      I’m afraid to add the liver powder to foods for fear that it will taste bad. Maybe I’ll try an experiment on myself first…

  7. ok, i need advice – lots of advice! both my boys just had a dental visit. my 3 y.o. is missing his 2 lower canines, along with an upper molar that’s only partially came in! there’s a 50/50 chance that the adult canines will grow in. and according to the dentist, it looks like my 5 y.o. will need a brace of some sort when he’s 7 or 8 to slowly change his bite — unfortunately he got my bite with my lower jaw over my upper jaw — an “underbite” if you will. upon some investigation, it seems that my 3 y.o. got his missing teeth genes from my mother side (she’s missing a molar).

    is there hope for my boys to change their jaw structure and grow 2 teeth through diet and nutrition???? the challenge is that my boys have life-threatening allergies to dairy and peanuts and allergic to eggs, fish, shellfish, tree nuts, seeds, wheat and soy. according to their allergist, cod liver oil may cause an allergic reaction so i give them fish oil from carlson daily, along with vitamin d3 drops (1000-3000 iu).

    thoughts? comments?

    1. First of all, Carlson fish oil ain’t gonna cut it.

      Secondly, if they have a lot of allergies, that is a sign that they may not be adequately absorbing the nutrients from food. My father-in-law had digestive problems (GERD) which resulted in osteoporosis.

      What food sources are they getting vitamin K2 from?

      I would consider putting them on the GAPS diet.

      1. To elaborate on Carlson fish oil

        Fish oil does not contain the fat soluble activators A, D & K2. You need oil from the LIVERS of fish.

        It is the liver (and other organs) that contain the most fat soluble activators — and it is these vitamins which help the bones grow properly.

        1. So what do you recommend if my son can’t take the fermented cod liver oil because he gets hives? He is currently taking ultimate omega 500 from nordic naturals, as well vit D and Vit A. Is this doing any good, or should we just be focusing on more organ meats?

          1. If he can’t take cod liver oil I would make sure he is getting plenty of organ meats including liver as well as grass-fed butter, cream and cheese.

            The best source of vitamin D after cod liver oil is pastured lard. Shrimp is also a great source of vitamin D, as is sunshine.

  8. AnnMarie, I ate Bradley method style, but not good quality and my Sam has great teeth, a wide face etc. I have some friends who are having dentists widen their kids pallette, painful and expensive. I also heard of doing this for adults and from what this person said IT DOES NOT WORK and is again, quite painful and expensive.
    So get the good stuff in the Kids asap!
    deb

      1. That’s the diet recommended by the Bradley method for natural childbirth. They recommend at least 80 grams of protein per day in pregnant women. I did the Bradley method with both my pregnancies and tried to get plenty of natural protein in my diet (no soy shakes, thank goodness!). Even though I was eating SAD (minus trans fat and HFCS), I think aiming for that much protein kept my diet nutritious enough to make a small difference. I ate lots of cheese and milk (though not the best kind, obviously).

        My kids both have a decent palate and tooth spacing, though not perfect. But we’ve been eating nutrient-dense foods around here for about two years now, since my son was 2 1/2 and my daughter was 4. I just started noticing spaces developing in both of their mouths. Never felt more proud. πŸ˜‰

        1. Like Liz, I ate tons of eggs, milk, almonds, roast beef etc during my pregnancy, all SAD versions, but lots of protein as per the Bradley method.
          My Sam has great teeth, I wish I did πŸ™
          xo
          deb

        1. absolutely ! my eyes and face widened. and with physical manipulation, I have seen faces change right in front of my eyes. not to the degree you are talking about, but definite changes as the cranial sutures open up, and the muscles/connective tissue soften and become more fluid.

    1. I’ve started an adult palatal expansion at age 39…it’s been 6 months so far…and it DOES work.
      Except, the palate is being remodeled rather than widened with new bone.
      I have room for all 32 teeth but the wisdom teeth only showed about 1/4th of the entire tooth, crown fully visible.

      Sometimes all that needs to happen is to reshape the dental arch so the bone is in harmony with natures law. Premolars need to be visible behind the canine teeth…not hidden behind them when smiling.
      Teeth can’t be tipped inwards, pinching the tongue..they need to be straight, no crossbite etc.

      Sometimes having a baby sleep on his/her belly in the early growing years causes the head to misshape…and the side that used to be burried in the pillow becomes underdeveloped while the side facing up develops normally.

      Make sure your baby isn’t constantly sleeping on 1 side with same side of the face on the matress/pillow. Rotate!

      I know this because this is what my mother did to me…she laid me down in a way she knew I wouldn’t cry and sleep. On my belly and face facing to my left…caused the right side of my face to be smushed…
      My sister was laid on her back her entire baby life…causing her to have a flat back head and a flat butt =P on top of it.

      I’m currently undergoing an adult palatal expansion and I make sure I don’t sleep on my face anymore. Besides, it hurts like hell when I do now and it usually wakes me up.

  9. Wow. The point about the adult teeth coming in outside of the baby teeth really hit home with me. I thought my children had some strange gene that caused that! The dentists have never been worried by it and the baby teeth eventually come out on their own. Good to know that information. Thanks for sharing it.

    I have one child (out of 7) with horrible teeth. She’s only 12 and having a root canal on a molar soon. Just breaks my heart. She’s an excellent, healthy eater, too. I’ve been following Ramiel Nagel’s recommendations for her but the tooth has been damaged by previous dental procedures. We can’t afford to pay for procedures by a dentist outside of our insurance plan. We’ll just start from here, use supplements to protect her before and after the procedure, and count on added nutrition to strengthen the other teeth.

    Great post, Ann Marie.

    1. Please, please, please don’t have your child undergo a root canal. They are dangerous and unnecessary. Read the article below, or at least read the third paragraph.

      https://www.westonaprice.org/dentistry/1957-root-canal-dangers.html

      Better off getting that tooth pulled and be done with it. Dentists can still use spacers, although they will act like they’ve never heard of those, either.

      My motto about dentists and doctors? Question authority — always.

      1. Oh the things I wish I had known….I was very reluctant, but allowed it… my daughter had to be put to sleep to have about $3000 worth of dental work done on her BABY teeth….boy did I get duped. My poor baby. I cried as it was happening….should have went with my gut feeling. The funny thing is she ripped all the caps they put on within few weeks. All is well now. We steer clear of dentists! πŸ˜‰

        1. Not to mention the tremendous amout of pressure and scare tactics they used to get me to do this.

  10. https://www.bradleybirth.com/Diet.aspx

    The diet of the Bradley method, its good but doesn’t go all the way and skimps on the fat….

    Thanks so much for the series, I’m loving it, especially this one!

    Been doing WAPF since my daughter was 5mos. old and started GAPS 3 weeks ago, hoping to alleviate some allergies….she just came up with a new allergy while on GAPS though…tomatoes. Any thoughts? I thought we would be getting better on the diet, maybe its from die off?

      1. Anne Marie,

        I think I missed this post of yours before, and I was reading through the comments here tonight to glean other info I might have missed!

        I’ve always been of the mind that people who THINK they or their kids or their dogs or their fish or their lawn mowers (or whatever!) have allergies, are really just being duped into thinking that’s their problem, when in reality it’s just die off from a “decent” food they ate along with all the normal “junk” most people eat. They have no idea that food can do both good and bad, unless they’ve experienced food poisoning.

        I think it’s because die-off is something most people associate with doing a liver detox or some such nonsense. I’m a firm believer in supporting the liver and all of our other vital organs. But the liver has a huge huge huge job to do every minute of every day, and I think detoxing an already stressed organ is a bad idea no matter how you do it.

        I tend to think along the lines of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) or the Native American ways, in that “like cures like” — if you have a stressed liver, EAT liver and your liver and other organs will take what it needs from that consumed liver. Or, second best, take a liver supplement. Someone mentioned liver supplements here earlier (swanson brand or something?). Personally, I would use desiccated liver supplements because, try as I might, I ginormously detest liver!

        It’s sorta like thyroid issues — if you use thyroid support, like bovine and/or porcine desiccated thyroid tablets or supplements, you can replenish that organ by using the same organ as a way of replacing lost biologic elements. Much less stressful to organs than a harsh detox, which most of the “remedies of today” certainly are.

        But that’s just me.

        Seems like a simple fix to me.

  11. This is such a timely post for me! I appreciate you writing about this. My 7 year old was recently referred to an orthodontist because her front two adult teeth came in really crooked, and her palate is too small for them to straighten out, it looks like. The orthodontist recommended we widen her jaw with a device now since her palate is still forming. He said if we wait until after age 10, the palate is “formed” and will be much harder to change.
    We eat pretty healthy, but after hearing this, I made sure my daughter is drinking raw milk and taking FCLO daily… I’m adding more fermented foods to our diet, and cutting out almost all sugar (we don’t even have any in the house) (well, besides honey)…
    I’d love to know what you think Ann Marie (and others): is it too late for her? The ortho said her palate is still forming… do we have time to widen her jaw naturally and not go through the pain and expense of a jaw widening device???

    1. Chanelle if you read the post, Karen did not find out about WAPF until her daughter was 7. She said her daughter’s teeth are coming in outside of her baby teeth.

      So, no, if your daughter is also 7, I don’t think it is too late. It wasn’t too late for Karen’s daughter.

      You may need to also use a palate expander, but the nutrition will go a long way.

      I really think the high vitamin butter oil used in conjunction with the cod liver oil is critical. And if you can, try to get some organ meats in.

    2. I had my palate expanded as an adult. it was NOT painful. wish I had had it done as a child. also manual manipulation via Hellerwork (my profession) and cranio sacral work can be helpful to widen the palate and face. and nutrition of course !!

          1. I was in my early 30’s. My teeth straightened and my palate and face widened and my bite improved. He glued a wire behind them to keep them straight, and years later a truly biological dentist took off the wire , as we didn’t want metal in the mouth, or metal crossing the midline of the body. slowly 1 tooth moved slightly but the others remained straight. I think the physical manipulation via Hellerwork kept the palate open. … Also, I’m not sure what damage people are talking about when they say a damaged tooth can’t be healed. I know , Annemarie that you remineralized a tooth. And my dentist saved a tooth that anyone else would have pulled or root canalled, with homeopathics and soft laser. If the pulp is at all viable it can be saved, ESPECIALLY if the diet is WAP. I learned years ago that if I indulge in grains and sugar, my teeth hurt and become loose. It literally feels like the minerals are being leeched out of them.

            1. oh yes, and pain is relative. as an adult I experienced it as pressure, and also a relief of pressure because the entire skull relaxed, and for the metaphysical ones out there, I felt my crown chakra open up.

  12. I would love for you to write a post explaining what you mean by an appliance that widens the palate. I thought there was such a thing, and then I talked with our orthodontist and he acted like it was a mistake, but something you said in this post make me think that we were talking about two different things and didn’t realize it…

    1. There is a device that widens the jaw… you have to twist it every day to make it a little wider. Sounds miserable for my daughter who hates pain!!
      Googled it and found this:
      “Standard orthodontic technique recommends the use of rapid palatal expansion devices as a quick way to widen a narrow palate. The widening process is accomplished by means of a rigid device (Hyrax) that is literally fixed to the upper teeth by means of orthodontic bands and dental cement. The appliance has stainless steel arms that extend off of stainless steel bands that fit around the molar teeth on either side. Joining the spider like arms is a screw that fits in the middle of the palate. The parent is instructed to turn the screw with a special key once each night before the child goes to sleep. The objective of this treatment is to separate the suture (space) that lies between the two bones that make up the roof of the child’s palate.” (https://www.icnr.com/cs/cs_08.html)

      1. The orthodontist I went to said there is no key to turn, and the device is only on the maxilla (the expansion of the mandibular palate is no longer constrained and naturally grows to follow the maxillar expansion). I found him on one of these organization’s websites several years ago:

        https://www.aago.com/

        https://www.aafo.org/

        Also, the palate hardens around age 12 — at least that is what my research found back then, and that’s what my orthodontist said as well.

        Also, this post on Native-Nutrition from back in 2007 gave me heart:

        https://onibasu.com/archives/nn/89300.html

      2. Crozat appliance is brilliant. used it as an adult with success. also Cranial sacral and Hellerwork will open the sutures.

      3. That is what I had in my mouth (they called it a bridge at the time) when I was 9. It HURT– I cried every time my mom had to turn the key. Not only that but I would have a severe headache for several days and could barely eat. Also I played the saxophone and was unable to play until we moved to only turning the key every other week.

        I suspect it would be different for different people– I had nearly constant sinus and ear infections so I am sure that was related.

    2. Your dentist isn’t aware of an appliance called a palate splitter?? Holy socks. I’d find a different dentist, asap.

        1. I had that device when I was 13. I turned a key every day. I don’t remember it hurting (definitely not the way braces do), and it really improved the shape of my face. While I wouldn’t say I have a wide face, people often tell me I have a nice facial structure. I highly recommend it.

  13. Great post! Can anyone tell me what a “wide” palate is? People always compliment me on my daughter’s lack of cavities, but I have no idea if her palate is “wide” or not.

    1. Here’s a long post at westonaprice.org on ideal palate shape and bone structure (and why):

      https://www.westonaprice.org/health-issues/279

      Oh, and here I found the twin study!

      https://www.westonaprice.org/dentistry/1733-from-attention-deficit-to-sleep-apnea.html

    2. If you put your finger in her mouth on her upper hard palate, if you find a ridge that drops down, there is lots of space to open the palate. simple manipulation can be very helpful. also the twin pictures are amazing , and you can see the difference.

  14. I often think how exciting it will be in ten years, when it will be twenty years since the Weston Price Foundation started, to see how all the WAPF babies have developed into young adults. Since the teeth and palate are mirrors to the rest of the body, and nutrition impacts everything, won’t it be grand to see the lack of illness, the sound body and mind, the ease of pregnancy and childbirth — all the things that Weston Price witnessed in groups all over the planet before the roads of “civilization” arrived to their villages.

  15. Kate’s palate, from what I can see in the picture, is excellent.
    She has spacing between all her teeth!
    I read over at Mothering off and on, and have read many instances where parents have been able to widen their childs palate through proper diet.

    Paula

  16. Thanks for the great article! Can anyone tell me where I can get the high vitamin oil and I thought there was controversy over the cod liver oil….Best, Laurie

    1. We recommend Green Pasture cod liver oil and butter oil

      You can find it on my resources page:

      https://villagegreennetwork.com/marketplace/supplements-superfoods?pid=1″ target=”_blank”

  17. About time AnnMarie!!, i had asked a question regarding this same issue months ago, im happy you have looked into it. My 4 year old has straight teeth with some spaces on each side however he has never had any spaces in general all around in the front and he does have a slightly bottom crooked tooth, I also notice that his pallet is narrow, it also looks like when he smiles the top shows alot of gum! which i really dont like, we started the wpf diet when he was 2, i was preggo then with number 2 baby at 7 months i started the diet for myself. My daughter now 2+ who loves the diet, has a wide mouth, round head and face, high cheek bones and thicker teeth than my son who looks like he has thin teeth, my daughters teeth have grown beautifully however im just wondering if she will have the spaces your daughter has, it does not look like it. I did have a third baby, i call her a wpf baby, i could only breast feed her till she was 5 months then it was the raw milk formula for her, OMG!!!, she has the biggest mouth ever like WIDE!!!, round head and face, high cheekbones and the only baby i ever had with so much hair, she is 9 months now and i have had to cut her hair 7 times! anyways back to teeth……….im assuming her teeth will come in good. Anyway my question to you way back was, if you wern’t on the diet while preggo was there a chance that your kiddos teeth could come in straight after there baby teeth fall out when diet was changed ; ). ………..we should post pics of our kids faces and teeth, just an idea, id like to compare (((sad to say)))), but sometimes there are moms on bad diets and there there kids teeth look fine, example is my sisters daughter who at 5 years of age had all straight teeth with tons of space, and my sister eats crap! (((((scratching head here)))))).

    1. Hi, Ivette

      Sorry, I don’t always get to all the questions on the blog comments.

      Anyway my question to you way back was, if you wern’t on the diet while preggo was there a chance that your kiddos teeth could come in straight after there baby teeth fall out when diet was changed ; ).

      Yes, I think so — if you feed them well — lots of fat soluble activators.

      I think Karen’s experience speaks to that.

      we should post pics of our kids faces and teeth, just an idea, id like to compare (((sad to say))))

      Great idea! I would love to see that.

      but sometimes there are moms on bad diets and there there kids teeth look fine, example is my sisters daughter who at 5 years of age had all straight teeth with tons of space, and my sister eats crap! (((((scratching head here)))))).

      I think it has a lot to do with what the parents and grandparents ate as well. What we eat impacts our genes, and then it impacts our offspring and our offspring’s offspring.

      I’m reading about this topic in the new book, “Deep Nutrition”

      Also, hate to sound negative, but your niece’s teeth may not come in so great as she gets older… she’s only 5. Let’s see how her teeth and palate look 5 years from now.

      1. Thanks for the reply Ann Marie!, I will look into the purchase of your recommend book. Oh about my niece lol, im waiting to see the out come this is really interesting! : )

        Much love x0x0x0x0

  18. wow, I needed this! My oldest is 12 1/2 and our biological dentist referred us to an orthodontist about 2 years ago for a slight crossbite. The only way to “fix” it is with a palate expander (it was called a palate splitter when I was growing up, and by the way, my teeth have moved back — all that money for nothing!). Needless to say, I’m on the fence about what to do. I don’t want to spend $$$$ on something that will not be a permanent change. And, after the palate expander, he would need braces because the spaces between the teeth would be too wide in the front. AGH!

    Also, my middle child had his adult teeth growing in above the baby teeth — it freaked me out — glad to know this is a good thing.

    I need to get some of that fermented cod liver oil. We do cod liver oil, just not fermented.

    1. The expander really can help.

      https://www.westonaprice.org/dentistry/1733-from-attention-deficit-to-sleep-apnea.html

      Scroll down to where ti talks about the Twin Study.

      Here are the before and after photos:

      Twins Before:
      https://www.flickr.com/photos/ammichaels/5412381790/

      Twins After:
      https://www.flickr.com/photos/ammichaels/5412381772/

      The identical twin on the left had her teeth pulled to make room.
      The twin on the right used an expander appliance to widen her palate.

      Interestingly, the twin on the left who had her teeth pulled quit the study because she felt so bad about herself — she felt bad because her sister was so much more attractive.

  19. Thanks Annmarie…I just remember so much controversy around the cod liver oil that I stopped giving it to my girls…

    1. Right, that was from Dr. Mercola’s position on cod liver oil.

      Here is the WAPF response:

      https://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-oil/1603-response-to-dr-mercola-on-cod-liver-oil.html

      They have never swayed on their position on cod liver oil.

      1. By the way, I suggest becoming a member of the WAPF. That way you can stay close to the organization and their positions on things.. I remember when all of that went down with Mercola, I was getting the quarterly journal in the mail (you get it as a member for only $40 per year). The journal put my fears to rest.

        https://westonaprice.org/become-a-member.html

  20. Hi Ann Marie,

    Your daughter looks absolutely adorable!!!! I’m currently 19 yrs old, but was blessed with virtually straight teeth (no braces) despite not having the best traditional diet when I was young (read beginning of “Hey, where did my food go?” on Kelly the Kitchen Kop’s site). I, too, believe that we can get our vitamin and mineral stores from our parents and grandparents. My grandparents came from Italy and Lebanon, and grew up on traditional foods. So did my father, who was born in Lebanon and didn’t come to the U.S. until he was 17 yrs old.

    I’ve also read in a medical website that our teeth are always “moving” despite someone’s age. I believe this is very true because I’ve listened to a podcast where a person, being an adult, was eating a healthy diet and taking natural mineral supplements and over several yrs or so, his jaw began to miraculously widen. So have hope out there people because our human bodies were built to be very unique and so complex, which greatly distinguishes us from all other living things on this planet— just as God planned!

    Thank you,
    Erica

  21. Is it possible that orthodontists jump the gun nowadays? I mean “slight cross bites” and all? I had all kinds of orthodontic work done as a kid to fix slightly crooked bottom teeth and they are still slightly crooked and I DON”T CARE because I look human and attractive anyway. I was told I would need braces but never got them for some reason (thank God) and my upper teeth straightened out on their own. I was eating SAD but still had lots of milk and ice cream and eggs in the days when still pastured so this helped I’m sure.

    I started eating WAPF diet after my second child. My first had crooked adult upper teeth which have now straightened out (he is 11 1/2). My second fell and chipped her upper front baby teeth as a child and her permanent ones grew in prematurely and crooked due to this. They seem to be slowly straightening (she is 9 1/2). The third has straight teeth and the fourth even straighter with spaces in between, So you can definitely see the correlation as the diet got better.

    So I do believe there is life without dental appliances and I really don’t think your child will need them Annemarie.

  22. P.S. :
    I sneak liver in hamburgers with the “ice cube tray” method. I thought I read about this somewhere on this blog. You take a pound of liver, chop it up and throw it in the blender with some water. Blend away until liquid. Freeze in ice cube trays and thaw as needed. It’s sort of a goopy mess and hard to get out of the trays so I let them thaw and then scoop out. I usually use 4-8 cubes per 1 lb of hamburger meat and add some mexican style seasonings. Nobody seems to notice the liver. They will even take bites of this raw. It may not be a heck of a lot of liver given the added water and all but this is the good grass fed kind so I think small amounts are enough.

    Just my 2 cents!

      1. Lowlines beef, also known as Dey Day farms (Best Beef Ever) sells Boost, 20% liver, 80% ground beef, grass fed in Santa Barbara. Makes great burgers!

        1. I buy Raw Braunschweiger at U.S. Wellness Meats. All grass-fed/finished products.
          They also have lard,tallow and that good stuff. Grassfed butters, etc..

          www.grasslandbeef.com …. US Wellness Meats

  23. Hi Ann Marie,
    I found that when my children’s guts healed after going on the GAPS diet, they began to eat everything in sight. They even asked for seconds of things like liver, which they had previously adamantly refused to touch! My opinion is that when the gut becomes healthy and strong, it becomes empowered, telling the brain to stop saying “eeww” to the healthy things and send them on down. People everywhere are amazed that my kids eat whatever is put in front of them, but I cannot take the credit: I truly believe it is the healing power of GAPS that did it.

  24. Ann Marie!
    I am often stressed that I can not afford to feed my family 100% WAP. 99% of our food is conventionally produced. We do have raw milk, coconut oil, mostly pastured eggs, raw honey and other whole sweeteners and occasional grass fed beef and occasional organic produce. I make everything from scratch following traditional methods. We eat lots of cheese, butter and creme but it is all conventional. I usually make kefir, for smoothies and soaking but I make it from my free WIC milk to save money (2% because whole milk cases obesity, eye roll) .
    I am really hoping for some consolation! But either way I am motivated to get back to getting that oil down them one way or another.
    So what I got form the first bit of comments is that if I can just give my boys cod liver oil and the high vitamin butter oil I won’t have to worry as much. Is that right? Do they need additional D and K2 supplements as well?

    We stared WAP when my oldest was 8 months. I haven’t worried about his teeth but it sounds like I should if I am not consistent with the cod liver and butter oil.
    The only way I can get my toddler to take it is in the gummy fish, but I haven’t found any that are a blend with the butter oil. How do you all give it to babies? It takes like 6 droppers full to give my 6 month old a teaspoon!

    I also just grind raw liver in my blender and mix it into my ground beef dishes with no complaints.
    I’m doing the best we can, but it is so hard to sort through everything and know what is vital and what isn’t and I just wish I could do it all the right way. It breaks my heart that I can’t!
    I have been considering GAPS lately as well, but don’t think I can afford it because it has to be all organic and pastured right? I can’t loose my baby weight despite being low carb for almost a year now and both my boys have moderate eczema. I have been working to heal my toddlers for a year and a half with no avail. But then I wonder if I’m just being drastic because dry skin doesn’t seem like that big of a deal to the rest of the world, you know? Has any one else done GAPS just to heal mild to moderate eczema? Right now I am trying to do more detoxing for them with clay baths and essential oils. As far as my weight I just wonder if there is something wrong with me. I’ve only lost 5 pounds since giving birth! And I have a patch of eczema that comes with my pregnancies but did not go away this time.
    I’ve been wrestling with all these thoughts and questions for months. Can anyone offer me something? I want WAP kids!
    Thank you for your blog!

    1. Rachael, I just want to say you are doing an amazing job. You are light years ahead of the vast majority of parents out there, and your children are already getting so much more nutrition than they otherwise would have been. We can’t all afford the time and money to eat the way we’d like to, but we can just do the best we can with what’s available to us. Just remember that stress can be just as damaging as the worst junk food, so it’s important to take things in stride and not tear your hair out trying to eat the perfect diet.

    2. Rachael, I agree with Elizabeth. Just do the best you can. Kids won’t always eat something just because we think they should. Try mixing the CLO with a little apple juice (organic if possible with no added sugar, like R.W. Knudsen) or make your own apple juice if you have a juicer. My kids are grown now, but when they where little they used to love apples after I whizzed them in the blender until they were just chunky, not liquidy and sloppy, with a little cinnamon and I’d sneak the CLO into the “applewhiz” which is what they called it. I also made them banana “shakes” with frozen bananas, milk and cinnamon (to help temper the sugar/glycemic uptake) and they loved those, too. Both were great places to hide the CLO.

      As far as your 2% milk situation, again you do the best you can do — can you buy whipping cream on WIC? If so, buy a carton of whipping cream (real cream, not Cool Whip!) and mix it unwhipped, of course, with your 2% milk to enrich it with a little more fat. If WIC doesn’t allow whipping cream, you might consider the extra out of pocket expense worth it.

      Try using pure coconut oil on your skin, it’s a great healer because it’s antifungal and anti-everything! I mix a little coconut oil with some brown sugar and use it as a body exfoliator, too. Leaves skin nice and soft and helps shed off that dead skin we all have. You must stand on a towel in the shower though, because it makes the tub very slippery, so be careful. This can be done with children as well, if you are careful. Also, for you own skin problems, are you sure you’re getting enough Vitamin K? If you think you might want to supplement the K (which is sooooo necessary for ladies, especially, as far as good bones are concerned as we age) I use a supplement called Full Spectrum Vitamin K made by NutriCology (I order it from Vitacost.com because they have reasonable shipping rate and pretty fast service). I’ve done a LOT of research on Vitamin K because I also have my husband taking it because it’s very supportive for the male prostate.

      I hope some of that information is helpful.

      If you’d like more girl talk, about kids and foods and skin and stuff, email me at:
      debskitchen2003@yahoo.com

      Happy to visit!

      1. I’m in the same situation as Rachel, I’m on food stamps and WIC. Unfortunately, the items you can purchase with WIC are very limited. The only dairy product you allowed to purchase is 2% milk. No butter, no cream, no buttermilk. Nothing that is actually healthful. Also, the milk cannot be organic. The eggs allowed are also inadequate for a healthful diet. Only standard, battery raised eggs are allowed. It’s very sad. I’ve argued with the “nutritionists” at WIC just because I was so frustrated. I knew it would do nothing for me, but it felt good. They then looked at me like I was a crack-pot and lectured me about the dangers of raw milk and told me I was being irresponsible and was going to kill my baby. ::sigh::

        I also worry and fret about these issues and I choose to use my food stamps for items that I cannot buy with WIC, often that means I have to make sacrifices for other items but for me, the fats are the most important, well that and the sprouted grains.

        Amanda

        1. Wow Amanda

          I want to commend you on doing as well as you are. I just read another comment you posted about how you are eating SO WELL for your baby. I had no idea you were on food stamps.

          Good going! I wish more mothers were as passionate about their baby’s health as you clearly are.

        2. Hi A. Fell,

          Are you able to sacrifice other areas of spending like tv, telephone, or anything else? It just breaks my heart to see that you are only allowed to buy 2% milk and other foods that are of inferior quality. My heart goes out to you and your family.

          1. Hi everyone,

            Amanda’s situation is just another reason why we should be so bold to spread Weston A. Price’s research so that we can have more good quality food available to everyone!

            1. As I mentioned in a previous post, I don’t mind paying for WIC programs and some of the other gov’t programs for young families. It’s another reason that I, like you, wish proper nutrition was more widespread, but our gov’t agencies just don’t know any better and even if they did, they are bound by the rules which are in place. It’s sad because people who know better wouldn’t feel so bad about paying for these programs if proper information was being distributed to the parents and allowed for purchase by the food stamp program.

              Butter for instance…why are they NOT allowed to buy butter? Because of bogus scientific information regarding cholesterol. It’s infuriating to those of us who’ve known about this for many years. It doesn’t make sense to keep lying to the public, except that all the agencies are in bed together and one makes money off the other. Most of all the medical/pfarma industries, to the tune of about $3 billion per year on statin drugs alone. Useless as they are to the humans who consume them, the drugs companies make a boatload of money. And that’s truly sad. But – – – how can we wake up the sleeping gubberment giant? We can’t because they don’t want to believe the truth.

              I like to read the articles at www.spacedoc.net because he’s a retired MD who was also an astronaut. He suffered severe muscle damage and a few other side-effects from taking statins, and now writes books and has his web site to try to help spread the word. Interesting. You’d think someone at a “higher level” would be listening to the man, but I guess not!

              1. With food stamps, you can buy anything other than alcohol and tobacco. I’m totally fine with those restrictions! Since I’m well into my 2nd trimester, I don’t have a problem with the occasional glass of wine, but I certainly don’t expect the government to pay for that. I can make some sacrifices here and there with what I choose to buy. I usually buy heavy cream and buttermilk and good butter with my food stamps and use them to make other things like creme fraiche and cream cheese. I also buy sprouted grain bread and my eggs. Because these items are pretty pricey, I have to scrimp on other food items, but to be honest, I cook almost all of my meals and use traditional methods that really seem to fill me up better than bulkier foods that are not properly prepared, so it works out. Food stamps for me is $200 per month.

                I am very new to the whole “poverty” thing. Until a year ago or so, I had a job that paid very well and I could buy whatever I wanted and I did. Working around the rules takes some getting used to. But, as long as we have uniformed people making things such as the USDA Food Pyramid, we are kinda stuck. It’s too bad.

                Also, most of the cash money I have, because I’m not on general relief or welfare, is used to purchase CLO and items of that nature that are not covered by food stamps or WIC.

                Here’s a link to what is allowed on WIC. I don’t buy much with my coupons. I do get a $10 check payable for produce from WIC. I get about 4 gallons of milk, 1 dozen eggs, 4 boxes of cereal (the types allowed are outlined), 1 1 lb bag of lentils or dry beans, 1 jar peanut butter.

                https://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/wicworks/WIC%20Foods/WICAuthorizedFoodListShoppingGuide-4-2010.pdf

                1. Hey Amanda,
                  Did you know that you can get more dry beans instead of peanut butter? That is what I do because it is just yucky peanut butter. Also I get the cream of wheat instead of the cold cereal because then I can soak it over night, the cream of wheat is the closet thing to real food. My little boy loves “hot cereal”. Also I use the 2% to make all my cultured dairy products including buttermilk and or kefir and or yogurt and “ricotta cheese” or to use to soak things with whey or to add to soups and things that I will cook or bake that way I save my raw milk to drink fresh. I used to get organic produce with the produce vouchers (and still do if it is on clearance) But I am hoping that having more produce will be better for us in the long run! Oh I get brown rice instead of the bread and sometimes the corn tortillas. The corn are the lesser of the evils between the bread and wheat tortillas. Anyway, just a few things that I have learned doing WIC.

                  It is so frustrating working with the “dieticians” One told me that no dietician would turn there nose up at the small amount of hydrogenated oil and high fructose in the bread and peanut butter! Well I sure do!

                  Also once your baby is born you will get 4 cans of fish and one pound of cheese. You have that to look forward to!

        3. Amanda, I had a client one time who placed her baby on goat milk after he suffered for a couple of months on regular formula (like Enfamil) of which she tried many types. He just puked up everything that went down and was not thriving. I talked to her about probiotics (like Culturelle) for him and at first she talked everything over with her pediatrician who then placed her baby on zantac – told her it was more safe than a powdered probiotic (can you believe the arrogance!). Baby become violently ill from the zantac and spent some time in NICU. Problem still unsolved. So she asked me again about the probiotics and as we were talking, another Mom chimed in with how well her baby is doing since I told her about the goat milk. Long story short, baby has been on goat milk for about six months and is doing fine. I hooked her up with the lady we buy our raw milk products from and she’s been nothing but grateful.

          Then, when she took baby back for a check up after his adventures in NICU, the doctor was talking about all these different things he could give the baby and yadda yadda. She told him she didn’t think it would be necessary and that she’d found her answer. The guy nearly came unglued when she told him about the goat milk and he screamed at her that it would kill her baby. Same thing you heard and it’s completely untrue. Nevertheless, she kept him on it and he’s still doing just fine and hasn’t had reflux issues since starting the milk. She supplements him with a B12 drop, I believe, too. He’s been healthy in every way and her doctor won’t even mention it when she takes the baby in for checks, because he has NOT been sick one single day. That doctor is making NO money off her for illnesses!! I would imagine that makes him a bit testy. If I were her I’d fire the guy and go elsewhere. No doctor would scream at me and expect to see me again, I can tell you!

          1. The medical profession irritates me beyond believe. Luckily, my OB/GYN is Iraqi and she totally thinks I’m doing a great job with my pregnancy and is fine with my decisions and my overall health. This is particularly true because I’m 32 and have the vitals of a 12 year old. She sees 18 year old girls who are 3 months pregnant who already have preeclampsia and gestational diabetes, regularly. She just tells me to keep doing what I’m doing!

        4. There is a farmer’s market in my area that accepts food stamps. I wonder if there is something similar where you are? I haven’t been on WIC in ages, but when I was I could at least get whole milk. πŸ™

      2. D.

        I meant to leave a comment and tell you how much I appreciate all your truly helpful comments. The things you share are so useful.

        So thank you! I appreciate you!

        1. Sometimes they are not well accepted though! I do try to be diplomatic but my passions tend to get in the way sometimes. I thank you, though, and hope to continue to be helpful to others.

    3. So what I got form the first bit of comments is that if I can just give my boys cod liver oil and the high vitamin butter oil I won’t have to worry as much. Is that right? Do they need additional D and K2 supplements as well?

      I think the Green Pasture cod liver oil and butter oil is sufficient. I do not personally see a reason for additional supplements. I also don’t think those supplements are absorbed as well as the Green Pasture brand.

      How do you all give it to babies? It takes like 6 droppers full to give my 6 month old a teaspoon!

      Babies only need 1/4 teaspoon of the high vitamin cod liver oil.

      I have been considering GAPS lately as well, but don’t think I can afford it because it has to be all organic and pastured right? I can’t loose my baby weight despite being low carb for almost a year now and both my boys have moderate eczema. I have been working to heal my toddlers for a year and a half with no avail. But then I wonder if I’m just being drastic because dry skin doesn’t seem like that big of a deal to the rest of the world, you know? Has any one else done GAPS just to heal mild to moderate eczema?

      While it is important to try to get organic and grass-fed meats etc. for GAPS, the main thing is to stop eating foods you cannot digest. If you and your kids are sensitive to gluten and/or dairy, you can’t really heal the gut until you stop consuming them. A lot of folks will go off gluten but still eat grains which are still hard to digest.

      My daughter had stubborn eczema and constipation when she was a toddler — after a round of antibiotics. I gave her Biokult probiotic and limited sweets and it cleared up in a few months.

      A good way to test if you need GAPS is to do a 3-4 week elimination diet. Then slowly, one at a time, introduce dairy products every few days. Starting with ghee, then butter, then yogurt or kefir, then hard cheese, then soft cheese, then milk, then finally cream (hardest to digest). Same with grains – introduce one at a time with at least a few days in between each trial. If you notice any symptoms such as pain, problems with mood, fatigue, excess mucus, etc. then you know you have sensitivity and you should avoid this food until the gut heals.

      As far as baby weight, I’ve struggled with that too. I’m still working on losing the weight from my pregnancy in 2006.

      One thing I’ve noticed with the WAPF diet is that it is much more nutrient-dense, and also higher in calories. Fat is much higher in calories, so when you’re eating more of it, you don’t need to eat as much in volume.

      I also got into the habit of overeating when I was pregnant because eating a lot was the only way I found to stave off the morning sickness.

      This past December I decided to lose some weight, get in shape, and heal my hormones. I started taking some supplements for my adrenal glands and thyroid (I’m taking adrenal and thyroid gland). I’m also working out at least 3-5 time a week for an hour every day.

      I’ve also just stopped eating as much. I eat very slowly and only eat when I’m really hungry. This means that sometimes I skip meals. I don’t eat unless I’m hungry and there are some mealtimes that I don’t get hungry. I just eat regular foods like eggs, sprouted bread, butter, etc. All the normal things we would regularly eat but I just eat like half (or less) of what I would normally eat.

      Since I started on December 8th, I’ve lost about 3 inches from my waist, and I think 2 inches from my hips. And I’ve lost somewhere between 8-9 pounds depending on what day it is (the scale fluctuates).

      I’m going to keep at it. My goal is to lose 20-25 pounds and be able to fit into my pre-baby clothes again.

      It’s not fast weight loss but it’s steady and it’s do-able.

      I posted a while back about this and I’ll be posting updates as I go along.

      That said, if you do have allergies to gluten or dairy, that can cause weight gain — so an elimination diet might be a good idea.

      1. Also I agree with the others. Don’t be so hard on yourself.

        Look for nutrient dense foods that are available to you that are affordable. Tunafish, sardines, and other canned fish are often cheap, easy to store and are very nutrient-dense. Organ meats are also an excellent choice.

        I agree with the idea of adding heavy cream to the 2% milk. That is what I do whenever we are traveling.

  25. I was wondering what you meant when you said “Her teeth are actually coming in outside of her baby teeth!” Do you mean behind the baby tooth? Thank-you!

    1. Niki

      This means that when the baby teeth came in the palate was smaller. Instead of coming in in line with the baby teeth, the adult teeth came in OUTSIDE of the baby teeth. The palate had widened so there was more room.

  26. My husband and I have talked about the differences in the palates of our three sons.

    With #1, I had access to raw milk, pastured eggs and meat before and during pregnancy but not afterwards (due to a move). He has a nice wide palate and straight teeth, but they are small.

    With #2, we lived out in the boonies and could occasionally get pastured eggs but that was it. I ate regular meat and milk and a lot of sugar and processed foods. His palate is MUCH narrower and while his teeth are straight, they are definitely more crowded.

    With #3, we had moved back to TX and I once again had access to good meat, milk and eggs. I also implemented a lot more WAP principles into our diet like fermented foods and properly prepared grains, and cut out much of the processed food and sugar. His palate is wide and his teeth are straight and strong. He also is the least picky of all of them and will eat virtually anything.

    #4 is due in a few weeks and I have eaten better with this one than with any of them. I can’t wait to see the results!

  27. I love this post, and all the comments have been fascinating to read. I have two boys age 2 and 5. We started implementing part of WAPF diet 3 years ago: switched to organic butter, got rid of bad oils, started buying sprouted breads, joined an organic produce co-op, got grass-fed meats now and then, but still did conventional cheeses, switched to whole organic milk
    (not grass-fed) and plain whole milk yogurt.

    We did that for two years total, but I was still afraid of raw milk and didn’t have the energy to sprout grains, ferment veggies, make kefir, etc. We tried cod liver oil that scared me too. During that two year halfway-WAPF time I had another baby born with one kidney and a bilateral cleft lip and palate. I had taken FCLO for my first trimester, but then I chickened out again, freaking out about the high vitamin content. (I know I know, my mind reels that I worried about THAT of all things, when now I know that I was undernourished.)

    Having a cleft baby with one kidney in utero scared me and my husband and my doctors. I had an amniocentesis and 10 days of hell while we waited for test results. We are SO lucky that he ended up not having an underlying genetic disorder (that is usually the case with two unrelated issues like clefts and kidneys). I went into survival mode during the last half of my pregnancy and the first year of my baby’s life. I knew that if I could just get him through his first year of life, then things would get better. So I knew I had to make sleep (for him and myself) and pumping breast milk my two priorities. I never compromised our sleep and I never gave him formula. I also didn’t take FCLO, but I did manage to keep up with all the diet changes we had made up until that point. We made it though to his first birthday: he ended up with three cleft surgeries, I pumped several times a day and fed him with a special needs feeder, he developed torticollis (a tight neck muscle requiring physical therapy, chiropractics, and sometimes a reshaping helmet for the skull–he needed one), and made sure he got plenty of sleep.

    He turned one, I stopped pumping (I couldn’t do it anymore, it was too exhausting) and this kicked me into gear to implement WAPF more. I found local raw milk, I bought Nourishing Traditions, started sprouting, bought kefir grains, ordered from Azure Standard, ordered cod liver oil with butter oil from Green Pastures, found all the real food blogs, found local pastured eggs, read the Weston Price website to un-scare myself from all the crap I had held onto regarding nutrition, and committed 100% to a new diet lifestyle. I even tried liver and I love it!

    I have more energy, I am healing from adrenal fatigue and poor thyroid function. My oldest son (5 1/2) has spaces between his teeth, but his mouth is small. I don’t know if that means his palate is narrow, necessarily, but at the dentist when I had a cleaning, we set one up for my son and the hygienist said his mouth was small. We’ll just keep going with all the dietary stuff, and if he needs an expander then that’s fine. He loves natto, so that’s good too!

    My youngest has crazy teeth growing in everywhere though. I have to take him to a cleft dentist who has never heard of Weston Price. I just don’t know what to expect with him. His lower teeth are pretty straight with spaces, but he’s only two and had a difficult cleft to begin with. He had a bilateral cleft (on both sides), both in the lip and the palate on both sides, PLUS the cleft was complete on one side, but incomplete on the other. I have such a specialty case that I get frustrated trying to know what my expectations should be. A cleft dentist is a must, but so is a Weston Price one. And he’s going to have missing teeth and crooked teeth either way, but I don’t want him having root canals or implants that will harm him. What a mess.

  28. All of my children’s teeth are close together. No spaces between them. I have been feeding them a WAPF style diet for the last 4 years. My son hasn’t had a cavity in 7 years, and his adult teeth are mostly coming in fairly straight, but no perfect. He’s 9 now. My middle dd is almost 5. A couple cavities from damaging foods as a baby, and her teeth are all close together. We took her to a WAPF friendly dentist and he said her palate was nice and wide and she had high arches — despite the fact her teeth are close together. They aren’t crooked, or crowded, just no spaces like Kate.

    My smallest, almost 2, has had the benefit of mommy eating a traditional foods diet for 2 years prior to conception, during pregnancy and continuing until now. Her teeth are also close together, no spaces.

    It makes me wonder. I have friends whose children have lots of spacing between their teeth, like Kate, and their diet is typical SAD.

    1. Well of course I am not a dentist, so I don’t know… I suppose you could certainly have teeth close together but also have a wide palate. I think it depends too on the genetics.

      I just thought it was odd that Kate’s teeth were so widely spaced since it is so rare to see. The proof will be in the pudding when we take her to her first dentist appointment.

  29. I know I’m probably just incredibly dense, especially after you just clarified “outside the baby teeth” for Niki, but I’m still a bit confused. Does “outside” mean in front of or behind the baby teeth?

    My son just lost his first baby teeth last month, and I was horrified to see his permanent teeth popping up behind his baby teeth – as in towards the base of his tongue. I had never heard of WAP before he was a toddler, and even then it was overwhelming to me. I eased into it all tackling only 1 thing at a time, so our family’s transformation was a slow one. I thought his palate was doomed, but now maybe not?

    1. Well I didn’t actually see it because I’m not the one who experienced it… it was Karen who wrote that.

      I *think* she means the adult teeth came in *in front of* (not behind) the baby teeth. So in other words, they are coming in wider, not more narrow.

  30. As much as I don’t want to seem like a wet blanket, I really don’t encourage people to post photos online. Especially not photos of children. This is just one of the many web sites where you can see why: https://abclocal.go.com/wabc/video?id=7621105

    I’ve been telling my family members ever since we all started using computers that I didn’t think this was a good idea. I didn’t even really know why at the time, but I just didn’t think it was a smart thing to do. After listening to the vid at the link above (and a few others like it) I have something with “teeth” to show to people who don’t believe me. I love seeing photos of kids because I love kids, but there are a lot of strange people in this world, so we have to be ever vigilant. Our gubment puts our prisoners on soy diets to try to save money (and presumably make them healthy, although why health of a convicted felon would be our concern is beyond me) but the gubment also provides computers – millions of them – to prisons every year with OUR money. Those prisoners track people online just exactly how you think they do. They find web sites and blogs and photos and their imagination takes over from there. It’s truly a scary deal. Lots of prisoners find people online in order to harm them for past grievances or whatever.

    Anyway, just a heads up on the photos. You should watch the vid at the link above. It’s only about 5 minutes long.

    1. Oh yeah. I forgot to mention in my post above, I also don’t encourage the use of Facebook – not for ANY reason. I’ve never been member there nor do I want to be. People, especially young people, no have no clue what kind of information they’re giving away at that site. If I want to stay in touch with people, I have a phone and a phonebook – both serve me well. I’ve read so much negative stuff about FB that I would never, ever go there under any circumstances.

      1. I was aware of this issue when it first started to come out. I don’t have location enabled on any of my devices but I think a lot of people don’t know about it and yes, it is scary!

    2. Thanks, D

      Interesting!

      That video is talking about an online site called TwitPic. TwitPic works with Twitter and it lets you “tweet” your photos.

      I am not using TwitPic when I post photos. I use Flickr.

      Flickr does not have that kind of geographical info on your photos. You can choose to place your photos on a map on Flickr, but even if you do, it is still private:

      What about privacy? Will someone be able to see where my house is?

      No. The contours of the Flickr shapefiles are an aggregate of all the geotagged photos for a place. The geometries are designed to follow the shape all the points as closely as possible but the nature of the Alpha shapes also means that some points are ignored altogether.

      Additionally, even if a person has geotagged a photo at the very edge of a shapefile all that would tell someone is that a photo was taken there. If you searched for photos taken at that exact point all the existing privacy restrictions (who can see my photos? who can the location my photo was taken at?) would be enforced.

      https://www.flickr.com/help/map/

      1. Also, something to keep in mind…

        TV news programs are trying to get people to watch so they love to produce salacious shows. While we do have to be careful to protect our privacy online, we also have to be careful to remember that not everything you read or see on TV or in the news is true. Or maybe it’s technically “true” like that story was, but that’s not how most people are using the internet — it’s an exaggeration.

        1. While all of what you said may be true, it is also a fact that people are tracked by using online social sites. I never watch the TV news and I don’t care much what they’re blathering about because they feed us what they want us to know and nothing more. Thomas Jefferson and a few others must be spinning in their graves over it all! Nevertheless, people give out TMI, as far as I’m concerned. They don’t seem to realize this anything posted goes world wide in seconds.

      2. I had a sicko take a picture I posted of my then four year old napping and put it in his ‘portfolio’ of near naked children and teens. It freaked me out so much I closed my flicker account. I don’t know if I will stay with FB but for now I do have pics of my Sam there but not my exact city and never her school name.
        It is a scary world in cyberspace.

  31. I am still on tenderhooks regarding this. I had horrendous dental/orthodontic work as a child/teen: 8 adult teeth pulled (Including all wisdom teeth) 4 baby teeth pulled, and braces for 3 years, and a retainer for 1, or was it 2 years? Oh, and gum surgery for a receding gum in the front. And my family ate better than most!! Lots of veggies and no sodas allowed except on special occasions.

    I found WAPF when I was 3 months pregnant and threw out my soy milk and began loving butter and steak for the first time. I had access to raw milk but was terrified to drink it, as all this was still so new to me. As soon as my baby was born though I gobbled it up. I breastfed my daughter and when my supply slowed I made the raw milk formula. I gave her slightly warmed egg yolk, with grated liver and salt for her first foods. Since then she eats very well – CLO/butter regularly, liver pate or liverwurst, raw milk, kombucha, yogurt, sauerkraut, soups with bone broth, etc.
    Her teeth came in very, very slowly. They are lovely little teeth but very close together. She is now a beautiful 5 years old. I hope and pray that by some miracle her adult teeth will find the room but I am not holding my breath. Her father has a great arch and plenty of room. She looks like him so I was hoping….:)
    Anyway, at least I now know that if she does need help, that is doesn’t have to involve the hell I went through. Thank goodness that Wise Traditions did that article that educated me about the palette expansion. What a difference this would have made in my life.

    But I still don’t get it. We ate homemade food like escarole soup and my cousins ate peanut butter and marshmallow sandwiches and fast food and we are the ones with all the messed up teeth and health problems. I don’t get it.

      1. No, I wasn’t raised vegetarian at all. I wanted to be vegetarian at the age of 10 because I didn’t like meat but mom asked me to try because she didn’t know how to meet my nutritional needs other than how she was raised – real foods. She was raised on foods from the farm and her father was a a gourmet at home cooking such things as escargo (sp?) and beef tongue. We did eat that but we ate very healthy – never margarine! Real foods and we’d go to picj your own places since we lived in apartments and didn’t have a yard and we belonged to a co-op. this is back in the 70-early 80’s. So, yeah. What went wrong?

        1. Whether or not you ate meat isn’t really the issue. I have met vegetarians who grew up in India who had perfect teeth and facial structure. However, they ate everything cooked in grass-fed ghee (clarified butter).

          It really is all about the fat soluble vitamins: A, D & K2. If you are eating dairy products from cows eating corn and soybeans instead of outdoors eating grass, the milk they produce won’t have decent amounts of these nutrients.

    1. In addition to what you eat as a child, it is generational. If your parents don’t have great bone structure, and they don’t have good nutrient stores, they don’t have it to pass down to you. If your parents have great bone structure from eating a traditional diet while growing up (and born to a mother who ate well prior to and during pregnancy,) you will be in better shape.

      It matters what your parents ate before you were born and while you were carried and nursed, and it also matters what you ate while growing up. It also matters, amazingly, what your grandparents ate.

      That is not to say you can’t turn things around with diet in the present. Sally Fallon Morell said she and her siblings all had crooked teeth and eyeglasses due to a more narrow palate, but she fed her children differently and none of them needed braces or glasses.

      My mom ate ice cream (from cows on pasture) every single day when I was in utero. She did it to improve the quality of her breast milk — she was nursing my older sister when she was pregnant with me. I am convinced that that is part of the reason why I am the only child in my family who did not need braces. My older sister and younger brother both had braces.

      In addition to that, for some reason, I was crazy about liverwurst. I think I was the only kid who loved it. Whenever my mom asked me if I wanted peanut butter and jelly or liverwurst, I typically opted for the liverwurst.

      Vegetables don’t matter. Vegetables do not have the fat soluble activators that give you a wide face and cheek bones. Unless of course they are swimming in (grass-fed) butter or cream.

      1. I grew up eating vegan/ vegetarian diet for the first few years and actually do have strait teeth other then having had all my wisdom teeth be impacted, not fun. I have had cavities since I was 2 years old. When I was pregnant with my son I drank organic whole milk and wasn’t shy of fat but didn’t do much else specifically in regards nutrition for teeth. He was fully breastfed into toddlerhood but had so many cavities at age 1.5 that by age 3 he required dental surgery. It was really awful. Now he is 9 and has developed more cavities since that surgery, though thankfully not in his adult teeth. My daughter, who is 2, has big beautiful teeth. Prior to my pregnancy with her I started eating lots of meats, fish, whole foods in general and took clo when I could stomach it. We can’t do raw milk but I do try and make everything else very nutrient dense. It’s a frustrating thing, since I know my vegan diet as a baby was not good for me and now I have a mouth full of teeth with fillings. I also do supplement with vit k 2 mk-4, and I take clo/ butter oil blend for myself.

      2. Yes – glad you mentioned this. What Dad looks like and his genetic contribution also matters, no matter how well you eat during pregnancy/lactation.

        My youngest baby, 21 months, has a narrower palate and her teeth are so close together I already have to floss them – but her Dad’s face is shaped this way. (He also has severe allergies and ear and sinus issues. His nose is super skinny.)

        My other kids who have a different father (my first husband) have wider noses, cheekbones and faces. Their teeth were well spaced too.

    1. My dentist hands out info on WAPF but also provides flouride and does other things I don’t agree with….you still really have to be informed…I find it hard to trust anyone.

  32. Well,this is an absolutely fascinating topic!
    I had always wondered if other families had noticed an improvement in their children’s teeth since adopting a traditional foods lifestyle,as this was the case with my eldest child.
    I have always eaten lots of high fat dairy products so I think I would have had good nutritional stores at conception,even though I never ate liver growing up,and naturally I have made other improvements since being enlightened nutritionally.
    My daughter was entering her teens when we noticed that an eye tooth was noticeably crooked and twisted, and she was quite self-conscious about it.
    All her other teeth were noticeably well spaced,and I would consider that she had well-spaced teeth at the time.This was also about the time I read Nourishing Traditions and started implementing many dietary changes.
    After about a year or so the tooth had aligned perfectly and now her teeth are just about perfect with really good spacing throughout-she even has a noticeable gap between the two front teeth .
    I wonder if because she was still growing that this was able to be given a chance to grow straight?She saw a dentist at the time and they said it would never straighten without major intervention,but all we did was introduce the healing foods.
    I feel like a have a tooth fetish at times,checking out people’s teeth !I think your daughter’s look great with all that spacing-so much room to grow and align.I particularly notice the teeth of African people as being so much better than ours.I have shared my daughter’s testimony with family members in the hope that they would make some changes,as they all have twisted teeth and braces and think that crooked teeth run in the family like blue eyes or blonde hair does.Cod liver oil is so much cheaper in the long run than the massive dental bills.

  33. Thanks for every ones’ reply! I know I got off topic but reading all this just made all these concerns come out!
    Relieved to know my baby doesn’t need quite so many dropper-fulls of CLO. I’ll look into if I need more K. I do need to just start sneaking CLO into smoothies and juices and such, I’ve just been lazy! But the liquid is much cheaper than the gummy fish!
    Ann Marie, I have been wondering how your hormone treatment has been going and what you are taking exactly, I don’t remember if your post said. I was on a homeopathic (Standard Process brand) adrenal gland support while I was pregnant. I was gaining 5 pounds a week so I started taking that and went low carb and by weight gain stabilized. So I ought to get back on that at least! And I could probably eat less, although my WAP natropath says that you can’t eat to much good fat or meat and that they won’t make you fat. Because according to bio-chemistry our bodies only store extra carbs, they don’t store any fat, all fat we consume is immediately burned. What does anyone know/think about that?

    Also wondering if there is a guide I can follow to do an elimination diet. I think I am working up to dropping grain and dairy,

    Any ways, this is a fascinating topic! A WAP dentist would be amazing! I asked our dentist if damaged teeth could be healed and he told me never. Well not only that, the structure of the face can be changed!! Absolutely fascinating! I could have avoided a lot of dental nightmare myself if I had eaten this way growing up, and my mom always told me I got weak teeth from my Grandpa. Although she might be in part, right? since his diet was so poor during the depression and that contributed to my genes.
    I am excited and hopeful about how my kids teeth turn out. Seriously this is one of your greatest post ever Ann Marie! A fascinating topic I am excited to share with others!

  34. thanks for your comments ann marie. we are slowly easing into GAPS but i think we may need to work with a nutrionist because of all their allergies. after their next allergy test i’m planning to try giving them the FCLO depending on their results. i like someone’s post about sneaking in livers into their kids’ meals and freezing them in ice cubes! i’ll definitely give that a try first! pardon my ignorance, what did you mean by K2 foods? πŸ˜€

  35. thanks for your comments ann marie. we are slowly easing into GAPS but i think we may need to work with a nutritionist because of all their allergies. after their next allergy test i’m planning to try giving them the FCLO depending on their results. i like someone’s post about sneaking in livers into their kids’ meals and freezing them in ice cubes! i’ll definitely give that a try first! pardon my ignorance, what did you mean by K2 foods? πŸ˜€

  36. I’ve read that an alternative way Dr. Campbell-McBride (GAPS creator) suggests for giving fermented cod liver oil to babies is by rubbing it directly onto the skin.

    1. For a breastfed baby, you can rub CLO onto the end of your breast just before feeding each time during the day and he/she will get the CLO without a mess, and your nipples will stay moist, too. It’s pretty stinky though, so if you’re a working mom this might not work. You’d only be truly breastfeeding evenings and weekends if you’re working outside the home though, so it might help partially get that CLO down the baby. I used to do this with Vitamin D drops, as well,before I knew about the CLO for babies. My kids, if ever the need arose, were fed goat milk in a bottle if we were somewhere where breastfeeding just didn’t seem appropriate. Pure goat milk, I didn’t make any special formula or anything, but while I was weaning from the breast I fed goat milk and supplemented a liquid vitamin. No special formula and my kids turned out great.

  37. This is all great, helpful info., thanks! Is there any resource that can help me find a wholistic WAPF dentist in Atlanta? Or maybe we should just move to LA :), haha.

  38. Never mind I found some options at Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation. yay.
    https://www.ppnf.org/catalog/ppnf/prof_list.htm#GA

  39. For the Liver try Dr Rons Liver pills..
    https://www.drrons.com/grassfed-new-zeland-organs-glands-intro.htm
    Dr Ron usually has a table at the WAP conferences. πŸ™‚

    I used these in the WAP formula for my little one. I just opened the caps up and dump the liver in smoothies, ice cream, whatever I am feeding my little one.

    No taste, no resistance. It works like a charm

  40. wow, this is a hot topic. I tried to go through the comments and see if this was answered already… but I am always going back and forth about the need for a butter oil supplement. If your diet contains quite a bit of grass-fed butter, is a butter oil supplement still needed, along with cod liver oil?

    Thanks,
    Jenn

      1. I would have to agree. I also think it’s essential for anyone with tooth decay issues. I took Premier Cod Liver Oil and ate lots of grass-fed butter for a year while I was transitioning my diet to the WAPF way, and it basically stopped my teeth from decaying further…..but my enamel never really improved until I added the butter oil. Within a few months of adding it, my enamel was noticeably harder and whiter in the areas that had been decaying previously. My decay is totally filling in! That butter oil is some awesome stuff.

  41. I am currently 21 weeks pregnant with a little monster boy. Both my bf and I ate a mostly WAP diet before conception and I have really ramped up my efforts. I mostly just go with what my body tells me to eat and so far I think it is working out. Of course, that is easy to do when you crave things like eggs and butter and fermented vegetables! We went for our “super scan” a couple weeks ago and both of us were asking the strangest questions of the tech. We wanted to know how our kids palate compared to others and if his cheek bones seemed wide. πŸ˜€ So far, he’s perfect. I couldn’t be happier.
    I am not a fan of liver but I’ve been choking it down for his sake and I’ve been religiously taking my cod liver oil which also has the wonderful effect of keeping the hemorrhoids away. πŸ˜€

    I’ll keep you all posted of the results.

    Amanda

      1. Awesome, yes, if correct. But I do hope that’s the only “Super Scan” you’ve had so far or will have. The medical industry is finding out that even those so called harmless sonograms can do harm and are scientifically insignificant and diagnostically insufficient in determining any abnormalities. I know – – the doctors and all other medical personnel will tell you how safe they are.

        You decide. https://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1429640/are_ultrasounds_really_safe_during.html?cat=25

        I went through three pregnancies without one and did just fine. My first baby was breech and upside down, and my doctor could tell all of that without an ultrasound. He didn’t want to risk it, I guess, because he never ever suggested one with any of my kids. All are healthy, grown adults now.

        Just something to consider, as many people are unaware of the silent implications. I worked in a medical office for several years and the billing made me understand the reason for most of the ultrasounds performed. No mystery there.

        1. I am fairly well versed in the ultrasound debate and I chose to have it anyways. I didn’t know I was pregnant until I was 12 weeks along. Now, here is where the Amanda is not so great comes; One of the reasons I take my diet so seriously is I have to mitigate my lifestyle factors. I drank pretty frequently and enjoyed it, not all day every day, but 3 nights a week and about 3 or 4 drinks. There was a few other unsavory items I was ingesting as well and those tend to rob a body of nutrients. I knew this, so because of my recreational activities, I was extra careful about what I ate and otherwise put into it. So, I had concerns about the placenta developing properly and possible FAS and neural tube defects. The scan showed a 100% perfect child. I had not done any damage to my little monster and that thrills me beyond belief. Of course, I’m sure I don’t have to mention this, but I will, there is none of that going on now!! As soon as I found out I was responsible for another life, I had no desire to do any of that. Partying had lost its luster.

          There was also a concern with the kids heart. The father has a congenital heart defect and we really wanted to make sure kiddo wasn’t going to have to deal with that and if he was that we were prepared for it. Also, I’m planning a homebirth and if there was a problem with his heart, I would have to go to the hospital for the birth, even though that would break my heart.

          So, there ya’ go. It gave me piece of mind. And, it told me I could go right along with my plans, for now. I will be having one more scan, right at the very end to make sure the placenta is where is should be, I know you can tell other ways, but because I’m doing the homebirth, I also want one last check to make sure the kid is alright before I release him into the world.

          1. Hey Amanda , Me again
            So I just have to mention hypno babies! It is the best!!! If you haven’t sought out a birthing method yet, check it out! I love giving birth! I think part of is just me but I know that hypno babies prepared me so well for my births.(My first was pretty difficult but my second was flawless and I still loved both experiences.) There is a difference between hypno birthing and babies though, so don’t mix them up. From my observation hypnobabies is more comprehensive and prepares you better than hypno birthing.

  42. @D,

    I read through that article and it is awful. The author is a stay at home mom, and in it she claims that there are no standards for doctors or people who operate ultrasound….are you kidding me? I work in a radiology facility and know how much EXTRA training sonographers have to do every year (on top of a four year degree).

    I’m a skeptical person, even when it comes to ultrasound, (I agree that they are not medically necessary) but that was a bad article to point other people to, very misleading.

    1. I had an ultrasound. I called my mom (who is a retired nurse) and she told me that ultrasounds are not anything like they used to be 20 or 30 years ago. Back then they were unsafe, she said, but now they are very safe.

      It’s every individual’s personal decision but I felt OK about my ultrasound.

    2. That was just the first link I came across, actually. I read about this somewhere else just recently but can’t remember where. I think maybe Dr. Mercola or maybe even the WAPF web site had some information about this. I just didn’t and don’t have time to check it out right now. I’ll check later and report back.

      Still the use of recreational sonograms (just to determine the sex of the baby) is expensive and a lot of the women this test is given to are on some sort of assistance program. I don’t mind helping with most of the gubberment assistance plans for young families, but the ridiculous ones I tend to get testy about. After all, I work hard for my money (I have in-home infant day care, mostly babies on monitors and oxygen) and get paid very little considering I’m responsible for tiny little human beings; however I do not take children of families who are on gubberment programs.

  43. It is like you took the topic right out of my brain, Anne Marie! I’ve been beating myself up for the lack of WAP diet in utero…glad I’m not the only WAP mother who worries, lol. The comments are fantastic as well.

    How do you get your daughter to consume the Butter Oil? Mine will drink the cinnamon CLO in juice (I know, I know, evil juice) but will absolutely not touch the butter oil. I have the raspberry flavor, so maybe that’s it? To be honest I hate the butter oil too, it just sits in our cabinet. I eat the gel (BO and CLO together) but only at room temp. She won’t touch that either.

    And what about the 6 month old who is starting his CLO? Is butter oil for baby a good thing?

    Any advice or suggestions would help, mamas!

    1. a great alternative to the butter oil, is grass fed ghee from Pure Indian Foods. less expensive and I was told it was tested as higher in K2 than the butter oil. cook with it, put it in warm milk or tea, etc. delicious !

      1. Where did you hear that Raya? I’m skeptical about that. The butter oil is much more concentrated.

        That said the ghee is excellent! I even use it as moisturizer now.

        1. From the owner of Pure Indian Foods. They had it analyzed. They are also working on the 100 times washed ghee for a facial cream. Call him and ask him about both.

    2. I am still working on this.

      I just mixed the butter oil and cod liver oil together recently (orange CLO and raspberry butter oil – -yummy!) and I’m going to start making Kate take it. She is old enough now to take it off the spoon. I tried putting it in juice and while the taste is fine, the butter oil gets cold and clumpy.

      She wouldn’t eat the gummy fish for a while and I would just give her a time-out if she wouldn’t eat it. It only took one or two times. I’ll do the same with the CLO/butter oil.

      Yes, butter oil for baby is an excellent thing.

      If they absolutely won’t take it, rub it on their skin. The people in India actually do this with their kids and ghee — they rub it into their belly buttons and inside their nostrils — you absorb a lot that way.

      1. Just a thought, but I never gave my kids cold juice. I always warmed their apple juice and added butter to it (this was before butter oil and even a decent CLO). We also used warmed apple juice on their oatmeal or farina along with about 1/4 to 1/2 of sliced banana.

        I use coconut oil inside my nostrils in the winter when it’s really dry. I also ordered some menthol crystals from www.mountainroseherbs.com and let them “dissolve” in a small amount of barely warmed avocado oil (which stays an oil at room temp and hardens in the fridge) and then mixed that with coconut oil and put it into a baby food jar and put it in the fridge so it remains a solid. My DH and I use it like Vicks, and it doesn’t have the petroleum junk which is bad for us.

        I love ghee but have never had any luck making my own. In 35+ years of “kitchening” it’s my one and only continual flop! (Besides my first blueberry pie that bounced on the floor from too much tapioca!)

        1. I should add to the above post, that we also used whole fat raw milk on their oatmeal too, but the apple juice was something we did occasionally to change the boring flavor. No instant pre-flavored fake blueberry (or whatever) junk for us!

          I also warmed their other juices (in the winter especially) like pineapple and pear, etc., and we often made a mixture of juices (we called it hooch or kickapoo juice). I always thought it was better for their digestion, and I also believe the intestines absorb warm things better (like nutrients, vitamins, minerals, etc.). Warmth also helps keep that peristalsis action going strong.

      2. So any chance they will/can add the butter oil to the gummies?

        I had just decided to go back to buying those. I have been trying to give my son CLO mixed in milk and such and he always says “something in there!” My blender is broken, so no “apple wiz” for us!

        Also my WAP natro path told me that eating lots of conventional butter and
        cream was enough and I didn’t have to worry about butter oil or grass fed butter and cream. It doesn’t sound like you ladies would agree.

        1. Hi Rachael,

          It is more important to consume grass-fed butter than it is to consume lots of commercial butter and cream. Activator X is only in butter from cows that have been on pasture consuming green grass. The green grass converts to so many nutrients, including vitamin K2. Without the grass, there is very little, if any, Activator X. This vitamin is needed for the assimilation of nutrients. Without it, you’ll be more prone to cavities and degeneration of the bones.

          This is exactly the reason why our ancestors saved special foods from the spring and summer months since the animals are eating rapidly growing green grass during this time. Particular foods that were saved for the winter months were butter, cheese, organ meats, animal fats, etc. It is essential to consume some foods on a daily basis since vitamin K2 and other nutrients are abundant in these foods.

  44. D. — Are you on any other social networking site? I’d love to get your contact information. You are a plethora of information. I’ve been thinking to myself that I want a WAPF mentor, like a mother figure who’s done this before. You are so reassuring and I like your positive attitude! I am putting my badly neglected blog, but please send me an email to the contact address on the blog if you feel like having a mentoree.

    1. No social networking sites (no FB or twitter or anything), since I don’t really have time, except in little snippets here and there during the day. I do have my own health talk forum and discuss everything from nutrition to the daily news, healthy home and garden ideas, even a few jokes, and we come down hard on the allopathic world, since I have little faith in modern medicine with the exception of trauma/ER care and some types of surgery. It’s almost like a blog now because there’s quite a few people who read there, but few post to the actual forum, which is sad.

      However, I will not post the link to my forum without Anne Marie’s permission. I don’t want to infringe on her generosity. I have posted my email addy here on one of the topics I’m responding to but I don’t remember if it was the one about brownies or the one about kefir. I suppose I could post that again and you could contact me. I’m no expert, I just use my own experiences in raising three healthy children with the advice I received from my parents and grandparents over the years.

      I would be happy to help in any way I can.

      debskitchen2003@yahoo.com

  45. D. — i’d love to read more about the cons of petroleum jelly. we need to moisturize our kids noses twice a day with aquaphor to prevent nose bleeds and possible allergens from entering (so we’re told from our allergist). so i’d love to know where to find the avocado oil for this concoction…

    1. Gee, I had a post all typed up and when I hit submit it just disappeared.

      Well, the long and short of it is this: I use Nutiva coconut oil which I order from Amazon.com, but there are many other sites where you can purchase it. I buy the 54 oz jug because it’s usually the best buy.

      I would prefer to buy unrefined avocado oil, but it’s expensive and is usually produced in a foreign country so S & H is pretty high. So I settle for refined avocado oil from Spectrum. https://snipurl.com/20fvxm Avocado is also a high heat cooking oil as well, so it’s useful if you saute onions, garlic or whatever.

      Here’s some information on the petroleum jelly saga:

      https://www.care2.com/greenliving/petroleum-jelly-on-your-face.html#

      https://snipurl.com/20fwwp

      Hope that’s helpful.

    2. Sorry, thought I would chime in here. I use coconut oil for almost everything! I get a 5 gallon bucket from Wilderness family naturals. It is the cheapest I’ve found (only a dollar and half more than butter these days). It seems to me it is a WAP pantry essential! Coconut oil is also anti-bacterial and microbal and viral right?
      My son and I have some kind of a lovely fungas right now, we are treating it with coconut oil!

      1. Wilderness Family Naturals coconut oil is refined. It’s in the small print, but it IS refined. You will want to search out a source for unrefined coconut oil (for eating) . . . you could use the refined junk for your skin issues and it’s great for hair. I make up a concoction of lavender oil and coconut oil for my scalp about once a month and leave it on for about an hour. Also, after my hair is dry (it’s quite long – mid back) so I let it air dry, and then I take a small amount (like a pin-head sized piece) of coconut oil mixed with Vitamin D3 (poke a hole in your gelcap) and rub it on my hands and then through my hair. I don’t, however, put it on my bangs because they are thinner than the rest of my hair and I don’t want oily looking hair. It doesn’t make oily looking thicker hair, it just tames the static monster and it’s feeding my hair at the same time it’s doing the conditioning. Pretty neat, huh? ;->)

      2. Wilderness family naturals is an excellent company, and I love their palm oil! Yes, coconut oil is anti-bacterial and microbal. It is wonderful for the immune system, too.

  46. So I have one more question. I tried reading the response to Dr. Mercola article on WAP, But I had a crying baby in my arms. So I want to clarify. It sound’s like the proper ratio in CLO of A to D should be 10 to 1. Is that right? So what about my almost full bottle of Carlson’s CLO that has a ratio of aprx. 2 to 1, will it hurt us? Or just not help us as much? That is what I have used all along! I tried the fermented and could not stand it. What is the naturally occurring ratio in foods like liver and egg yolks?

    1. Yes I think 10 to 1 is right.

      Carlson’s is not recommended.

      For one thing, it’s heated and it’s refined — which makes the oil rancid, plus it destroys the natural vitamins A & D. So they have to add the vitamins back in (synthetic vitamins, which the body does not absorb as well).

      This is why the ratio is wrong. They destroy the vitamins by heating it to a very high temp and refining it — and then they add them back in but at the wrong (unnatural) ratio.

      They have improved the flavor of the fermented cod liver oil. Get the new “emusified” kind. I especially like the orange flavor. Tastes like candy — or hide it in orange juice.

  47. Hi all,
    I rarely find time to comment on blog posts, but Weston Price did write about it and I have it quoted with a photograph on my website:
    https://www.curetoothdecay.com/Orthodontist/facial-structure-diet-orthodontics.htm

    I call it nutritional orthodontics.
    Unfortunately the picture is not as black and white as in this article.
    You can see the complete collapse and destruction of a relatively good wide face as kids grow up on the modern diet. So yes, diet is king.

    A wide face is not exactly what you want to look at. You want to look at how spaced the teeth are, and the position of the lower teeth in relation to the upper teeth when the mouth is closed. (See Chapter 9 of “Cure Tooth Decay” on Orthodontics). The ideal caveman bite has the front top teeth, flush with the front bottom teeth. The teeth tell the story. Also someone can have a fairly wide face, but their teeth and upper palate can still be somewhat narrow.
    Conversely there is a limit to what diet can by itself do to improve the dental arch.
    The shape of the child’s face is determined by both the mother and father beginning at least 3 months before conception. The father plays a big role in the matter. The level of stress in the parents nervous system also plays a huge role. Less stress can lead to a better bite. Conversely parents with a more “primitive” bite will have less stress in their nervous system since our bite controls and relates to our physical stress response.

    Even though my daughter’s are both healthy, and eat organ meats, skate / skate liver / cod liver oil/ butter oil daily, and many nutrient dense foods, their imperfect bites from birth have improved but the structure of the bite has remained the same.

    Unfortunately there is a limit to what a diet can do with palate formation and growth. The way the head and face grows is related to the current bone structure of the child. So if the bone structure is properly proportioned, the head and face can grow fully on a great diet. But if this bone structure was not properly proportioned from the time of birth, then even a great diet will not correct the imbalanced structure. A great diet will make a huge difference and allow for the most bone growth possible, but the template for the child’s growth is formed in the womb and before conception. The bone structure and organ formation in the womb also effects how the baby utilizes and absorbs nutrients.

    So many children will benefit from a correctly designed dental appliance at an early age. The dental orthodontist I see conversely has transformed narrow bites of children, with a plastic dental appliance, to wide cave man bites without dietary intervention. Unfortunately there are very few practitioners who understand the principals for doing this, even though it isn’t complex.

    Conclusion, a diet rich in fat-soluble vitamins and minerals insures for maximum bone growth. But some children will benefit from a dental appliance so that their template can be changed.

  48. Jeepers, if anyone ever finds the little button which we can all push to relieve stress in our lives, I hope someone shows me where it is! Stress seems to be blamed for every blessed thing these days. Stress is a part of life. Most people deal with it however well they can at the time it happens. EFT works for some, not for me.

  49. Jeeze, if only it were easier to find a dentist that understood this concept. Maybe the WAPF can compile a list like the raw milk directory? Any thoughts on that or does anyone know of where such a list exists?

  50. This was very interesting and encouraging. I feel more motivated to make more effort to get my daughter to eat liver! I discovered WAPF when she was over 1 and gradually began making changes to our diet. Unfortunately her 1st lower teeth came in crowded and still are. Her top teeth have a space or 2 between some of them though. Hopefully the new foods we’ve been eating for a year now will change things. She does take cod liver oil from a teaspoon without any problem and she takes the butter oil with a bit of honey. We do eat a lot of fats like butter, lard and coconut oil. The butter and cheeses are pastured but not raw. Would this affect the vit K content? Also we do eat sardines from a tin but often wondered about it being safe from a tin with the metal or lining leaching. What do you think? I’m glad you gave examples in another post of what your daughter eats for breakfast. I was impressed by the amount. I have since upped her quantity of one eggs to two πŸ™‚
    My 2nd baby was born after a much better diet but has a narrower face but I’m hoping her teeth will be more spaced out. Raw milk we’ve had on and off depending on our supplier.

    1. Hi Annonymous,

      Since you are on the WAP diet for your family, your daughter’s teeth will straighten out as time passes. Your daighter is still growing rapidly, so there will be many changes to her body. The butter and cheese are fine pasteurized if the cows are on pasture. This does not affect the vitamin K content at all as Chris Masterjohn has already assessed this in an article on the WAPF site. Continue to give your children nutrient dense foods everyday. Your children’s palates will widen as they grow. I’ve heard many testimonials from individuals whose palates have widen significantly due to a nutrient dense diet.

  51. I haven’t seen this post on the site yet, just happened to be looking through the archives and there it was. I started eating a more traditional foods diet when I was pregnant with my 3rd child. I ate tons of butter and drank raw milk and started in on some FCLO. Prior to this however I flirted with all manner of styles of eating – raw vegan, nearly vegetarian, no dairy for years due to an allergy with my 2nd child, certainly no organs, but did take fish oil, good supplements, some extra vit D. My son is now 17 months old and his teeth are coming in crowded. I’m so heart broken about this. I’ve been giving him FCLO and pastured egg yolks since he was about 7 months. He now gets FCLO, butter oil, pastured eggs, Dr. Ron’s organ delight, probiotics. I’m going to continue to try to get as much trad food into him as possible. He’s had digestive issues as well – reacted to gluten and dairy. Now I think I can get dairy in him without a problem so I’m giving him as much of it as he will eat. He’s teething a good deal and won’t eat much other than breastmilk. I’m concerned and hoping that his palate will widen with nutrition, chiropractic and eventually a device to help widen his palate if necessary. What else can I do?

    1. Hi Kimberly,

      I would put your son straight on the GAPS diet with lots of bone broths, fermented foods, organ meats, eggs, animal fats, etc. Allow him to start from the intro first if he can’t tolerate much foods. Make sure to put a great emphasis on foods rich in vitamins A, D, and K2 or Activator X. His palate should expand on a nutrient dense diet, but it does take time.

    2. Kimberly, if you had a dairy allergy when you were pregnant with your second child, you are probably still allergic. Drinking milk, even raw milk, when you are allergic to dairy will affect your absorption of the nutrients in the milk as well as your absorption of nutrients in other foods. I have had to go off of all dairy, even the amazingly nutritious raw dairy, because of an allergy. When you’re allergic, you’re allergic. Switching to raw doesn’t fix that. Raw milk is handled well by lots of people who are lactose intollerant, but that’s different than an allergy. If your son is still mostly breastfeeding, and showing signs of absorption problems (evidenced by the crowded teeth) then YOU should consider going on the GAPS diet. This would take care of your dairy allergy and absorption issues (evidenced by your son’s crowded teeth… probably poor absorption of nutrients when you were pregnant with him). I’ve had many of the same issues. I’m currently getting acupuncture every 2 weeks for other health issues, but my naturopath is confident that after I’m done with the treatments (I’ve been going for about 6 months), I will probably be able to have dairy again. Don’t lose heart! Also, you may consider seeing a good naturopath, who can better diagnose your son’s problems. I have a son with teeth that are prone to decay. I do my best with diet and all, but my naturopath also has prescribed some chinese herbs to heal the underlying cause of this decay, a kidney deficiency, which affects bone and tooth formation. I never would have figured that one out. I’m also glad you’re planning to use chiropractic. My son has had cranial work done which has helped him a lot also.

  52. Interesting. My youngest who is 4 does have space between his teeth…we began eating WAP style when he was 2. My oldest who is 17…has crowded crooked teeth…and no interest in eating what I serve. My 9 year old has perfectly straight uncrowded teeth. I did nothing right with my diet for any of the pregnancies. Only looking forward from here! πŸ˜‰

    1. I’m late at this post but my son had a very noticeable overbite. We didn’t start WAP diet till 6 months and his overbite has diminished a lot! Maybe he grew into himself, maybe its the diet of liver and cream but I’m happy for him.

  53. So interesting to see this today! My nearly 6 year old daughter went in for a dental exam and cleaning yesterday and the dentist noted that my daughter’s palate needed widening before her permanent started coming in. My heart sunk, thinking of some contraption that needed to be put in my child’s mouth, not to mention the back of mind fear of orthodontics bills down the line………

    1. You cannot grow a tooth after it has already been worn down, and it will not be enamel, but a substance (which is actually harder than enamal) called dentin can fill in exposed areas of a tooth with a good diet. This would include a chipped tooth.

      I had to cut out processed sugar and un-soaked whole grains from my diet as well as including the cod liver and butter oils.

  54. That’s interesting. When I was pregnant with my first I didn’t eat terribly well. And not until he was a year did we eat more nutrient dense foods. It seems like the teeth that came in before we started eating good (also taking cod liver oil) are spaced close together and the rest after we ate better are further apart. I wonder if there’s any coincidence there?

  55. Thank you so much for this post! I too discovered Weston A. Price only AFTER my daughter was born, and she was born with a severe underbite. I already see a huge improvement though, and that is just from changing my diet, as she is not able to digest much in the way of solids just yet. It is really good to hear validation of this from other people, as of course as a mother you are never sure if it is just wishful thinking.

  56. I happened on this post while doing some research on dental health.

    My kids’ teeth look just like Kate’s. Wide, slightly spaced apart, mostly white. We didn’t discover a traditional diet until my oldest was around 15 – 16 months old and I personally have a terribly narrow jaw. Still her teeth look great! My second was breastfed for 8 months and started on traditional foods (well — breastfed for 3 years, but exclusively for 8 months). I ate a traditional diet for months before becoming pregnant with my third, and he’s still breastfeeding (some — he’s not that interested, at almost 17 months!! I’m not used to this) and started him on traditional foods.

    It’s very interesting to watch. I’m sure they’ll have plenty of room for all their teeth as adults, no need to remove the wisdom teeth.

  57. Anne Marie, I listened to the videos you posted in an article about Cranial Neurostructuring. This was something I was interested in doing as my wisdom teeth were removed. You said that you and your husband planned on doing this. Did you do so and what were the results?

  58. I have recently started Cod liver oil/high oil butter blend with my kids (and I am the one that asked about the blood type diet on your FB. Trying to do Price and Blood Type is VERY INTERESTING!).

    The main reason I’m commenting (other than to say this gives me hope that it’s not too late for my kids) is that I have a tip for you about livers.

    I always cook livers with hamburger meat. If you puree it ahead of time or chop it up with the hamburger no one ever knows. I use it in tacos, spaghetti, you name it. Of course it ends up not being raw but still….

  59. Hello,
    I’m just discovering this post now. I’m so glad to see an article discussing teeth after birth. We have been moving away from a SAD diet towards WAP for the past 3 years. My son (who is 4) has an underbite that we’ve noticed since he was a toddler. When I ask my dentist about it, he seems to believe that there’s nothing to be done about it. I’m hoping that now since we’ve been eating a traditional diet, there’s a chance it will repair or improve at least. My daughter who is 19 mos, also seems to have the same issue, even though I’ve been eating traditional foods since before she was conceived. She does have a nice spacing between her baby teeth.
    What are your thoughts on underbites? I’m just curious if there’s more we can do. We’re currently eating liver approx 1 week, we have raw milk/ butter/yogurt daily, and take our Green Pasture (since it’s been available locally- 6 mos).

  60. I know this was posted a long time ago but about getting kids to eat liver etc. : u can grind up your organs meats and squish them into ground meat before you make something with it. They don’t even notice.

  61. This is the stupidest load of baloney I have ever read. There is absolutely no way that simply by eating right you can widen a child’s palate or correct facial features. Give me a break!

    1. I wonder how many people you know are following the Weston Prize diet and are doing so in the correct manner. I wonder if you know anyone who does not eat any refined sugars or their alternatives, artificial or natural flavourings, bulkers, fillers, non organic food sources (as much as they can) trans fats, heated vegetables oils, soy, commercialised breads and so on. I wonder how many people you know consume cold pressed fermented cod liver oil and grass fed butter oil The reason why I wonder is that at if you new people or had tried this diet corrently and for a reasonable period of time then you may understand the ability this diet has to change/improve the human body after all you are what you eat. I do not in any way suggest that your criticism is based on unbiased viewpoints but I have a simple feeling that you have never tried this diet in the correct manner.

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