UPDATE: After I posted this video, I emailed Sally Fallon Morell and David Wetzel to ask them for commentary. I offered them the opportunity to be interviewed and/or issue a statement. Obviously they will need some time to watch the video, and they may want to watch all the videos in this series before they are ready to comment. So I'd like to give them ample time to respond. I will update my blog and Cheeseslave Facebook page when I hear back from them.
This is the ninth video in the Fermented Cod Liver Oil Scandal interview series.
In this video, #9 in the Fermented Cod Liver Oil Scandal series, I talk to Annie Dru, Ancestral Cuisine Educator, of Lardmouth.
We talked about:
* Holding people accountable for bad behavior and mistakes (humanness), while at the same time, expressing forgiveness and love for them
* Public shaming and how much it hurts every one of us
* How a healthy community can support each other through tough times
* How we can transform a shame-based organization into one that lets people share their voices, ask questions, and engage in conflict and disagreement, and one that allows everyone to participate and shine their light and share their talents
WARNING: I know many of you are watching these videos with your kids. This video contains sensitive content that is not appropriate for children. Just wanted to give you a heads up.
Fermented Cod Liver Oil Scandal: Video Interview with Annie Dru of Lardmouth
Reactions from Others in the WAPF Community
Do we need more accountability and transparency from David Wetzel of Green Pasture Products and Sally Fallon Morell of the Weston A. Price Foundation?
I think so. And many others agree with me.
A couple days ago on David Gumpert's Complete Patient Facebook page, someone brought up in this thread the notion that this whole thing has been blown out of proportion. (You can read the whole thread and comment on the thread here.)
This longtime WAPF member (Hi, Bryan!) posted the comment:
My response to Bryan yesterday was this:
I tagged:
Cathy Raymond, who worked for almost a decade for the Weston A. Price Foundation and the Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund
Liz Reitzig, winner of the WAPF Activist Award, raw milk activist, and the owner of a large buying club in her community
Randy Hartnell, owner of Vital Choice Seafood and longtime WAPF member and sponsor
Blaine McAfee, farmer and co-owner of the world's largest raw milk dairy, Organic Pastures in California
Here is what how they responded:
Show Notes
My blog post on how my business failed: What I Learned Building – And Losing – A Million Dollar Company: How Failure Set Me Free
Books We Talked About
So You've Been Publicly Shamed by Jon Ronson
Daring Greatly by Brené Brown
Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon Morell
Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Dr. Weston A. Price
Organizations We Talked About
Weston A. Price Foundation
Green Pasture Products
Price Pottenger Nutrition Foundation
Read More About The FCLO Scandal
To learn more about the history of the FCLO scandal and get my take on it, please read my post, My Take on the Fermented Cod Liver Oil Scandal.
Click here to download Dr. Daniel's free report: Hook, Line & Stinker: Hook, Line and Stinker!: The Truth About Fermented Cod Liver Oil
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Please share your thoughts in the comments below or on my Facebook page.
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Annie’s interview was a generous attempt to redirect the focus of this issue back to GP to look at better production practices when making their FCLO product. In the meantime, stop the sale of the current product. She did so with kindness and grace.
Thanks, Blaine <3
Could you please tell me where the “meat” of this video starts? I haven’t got time to listen to it all. Where does the cod liver oil part begin? Thanks.
I’m going to turn all these interviews into MP3s… so you can listen on your phone wherever…
In the meantime, you can go check out David Gumpert’s latest post for an encapsulation of the interview: https://davidgumpert.com/loyalist-laments-unraveling-of-wapf
Molestation charges are serious business, and yeah, I’d say that airing this interview was totally inappropriate. Furthermore, WHAT does this have to do with the FCLO scandal? Seriously, what?
@Amanda
Why is airing this video inappropriate?
WAPF is totally intertwined, hand-in-glove, with Green Pasture Products. I think that’s pretty obvious.
1) They are serious allegations. If you saw some a waiter at a restaurant touching women who had no men at their table and asking them about their sex lives, would you have a problem posting about that on Facebook? Would you have a problem complaining to the manager? You’re not judge and jury, how dare you mess which his freedom of expression and freedom of speech?
2) Annie Dru is a teacher who recommended FCLO to her customers for years. Half of this interview discussed the FCLO controversy
3) This incident speaks to the character of at least THREE of the board members that voted not to test FCLO. 1. Geoffry Morell – accused of inappropriate behavior. 2. Sally Fallon Morell – saw the inappropriate behavior – turned her back. 3. Kim Schuette – heard the report about the inappropriate behavior, chuckled, was not surprised – had heard and experienced it before, and said in effect, just let it go because we don’t want to upset Sally.
I’ve been hearing from a variety of sources that “don’t rock the boat, don’t upset Sally” is a theme in the WAPF organization. That’s a problem. Additionally WAPF and extended related bloggers are basically the ONLY marketing that GPP has and they have basically said trust us, and Kaayla was wildly wrong. That’s significant. This speaks to their trustworthiness. It is totally related and relevant.
According to Annie Dru “everyone [at WAPF] knew” about Geoffry’s bizarre healing technique… or at least that’s what she claims Kim Schuette told her (and Annie seems to believe it). If that’s true then I guess Kaayla Daniel must have known about it also, right? I mean, if Kim Schuette knew then how could Kaayla possibly *not* have known being the former VP of WAPF and all, which would surely mean that she had a front-row seat for Geoffry’s show at the VIP table of every conference, among other things. Now, what might that say about *her* character/trustworthiness? or does Kaayla get a special pass on this one?
She should be asked about this. Would be interesting to see what her answer is and her explanation if she knew about it.
@Amanda
As you will see on my recent post, I did reach out to WAPF VP Kim Schuette last week requesting her commentary and offering an opportunity for her to be interviewed. She has not responded.
Please tread lightly with your comments. Attacking people’s character will get you banned.
Ann Marie, thank you for all the information you have written and shared about the concerns people have been having with FCLO for GP. I had no idea this was happening. But as I got ready to go on the GAPS diet, I wanted to read more about CLO and probiotics and the the stuff that are GAPS stuff.
I am disappointed with WAPF, as they had been among my go-to websites for real and actionable health information.
Thankfully I never took FCLO because I thought it was extremely pricey and I instead took a couple of brands recommended by WAPF. But my two sisters started taking the product recommended by their physician in the last several months.
I informed them of the health concerns many have been having with the product and they stopped taking it.
I really want you to know that I viewed all the videos of the individuals you interviewed and got to understand the core of the issue. I appreciate all the information and especially appreciate your gracious attitude about the people involved who, I feel, bear responsibility about the product’s failing.
I have never commented on your blog before, but wanted to let you know that I appreciate your effort to inform consumer about this product.
@KalliBella
I really appreciate your comment.
You are in the minority. Most people, even people who really should, do not investigate. They do not watch the videos, read all the posts, etc.
I think people with stories deserve to be heard. When people make their minds up without taking the time to listen to these stories, it’s really not fair.
Thank you for your concern. <3
Very well said Ann Marie! I completely agree.
Thank you Ann Marie!
I think that when it comes to health, people need to research as much as we research when we are planning on buy a car, or a flat screen TV, or any other major purchase.
I my case, I feel I must because I have health issues that are mostly due to my ignorance and over reliance on popular culture for my health and wellness information.
By the way, your interview of Dr. Rudi was very, very enlightening. I really appreciated the fact that he thought that thousands of years ago CLO was produced by the fermentation of the fish’s liver because they didn’t have any other way of obtaining the oil they needed for their health. I see no reason whatsoever for a modern CLO producer to revert back to obsolete and unhealthy ways to produce this oil when there are state-of-the-art methods and equipment to obtain good quality oil. I also appreciate the fact that oil will oxidize and change its characteristics. I think he said this is true for any oil and all oils, especially the unsaturated oils.
Hearing him say that was a big eye opener for me.
Also, I got the impression from listening to all the people you interviewed that Dr. Price would advice against this risky methodology of CLO production.
I also now question if a healthy person should take CLO every day indefinitely. I can see the need for an ill person to take it, but if a person eats a clean diet and gets the nutrients that are contained in CLO via a well balanced healthy diet, I do not see the need to supplement.
I will consider supplementing with CLO during my healing process while I go through the GAPS diet, but beyond that, I think that if I supplement with CLO I will do so during the cold winter months (I live in the Chicago area and winters are long and cold) and whenever I am dealing with some illness.
Has GP produced any independent lab results attesting for the quality of their oil?
But anyway, I do want to thank you for doing this video series and interviewing experts like Dr. Rudi.
Deeply disturbing in part, and healing in part. Couldn’t comment yesterday; just spent the rest of the day in the garden. What a lady she is. Very impressive.
Interesting interview, but I disagree that we are all a part of the problem. No, they are responsible for their actions. I never joined WAPF due to the [removed] leadership [removed] of Sally. She doesn’t have nutrition training and makes such exacting statements of what is safe and isn’t, aka FCLO, etc. She is responsible for how she handles the organization, treats members and non members and those who don’t agree with her. She makes it political and unhealthy.
I didn’t make it that way as a follower of the diet and supporter of their research, and neither is anyone else. We are responsible for following her to whatever degree we have. We are responsible for not holding her and her entourage accountable.
What’s happening with the FCLO is discpicable, and unethical. It’s wrong–sorry he doesn’t deserve hugs, he needs a slap back to reality. He is [removed] pretend it’s not happening. Why should I support him? Because he’s a nice guy? He already made his bed–complete denial–why should we hold his hand? Would we do the same to a pharmaceutical company? Hell No.
Jen – Annie Dru replied to your comment below…
I modified your comment slightly to remove the personal attacks.
@Jen
I also want to say I do understand and empathize with your anger. I believe anger is necessary in order for us to set limits and create boundaries for what is acceptable behavior. So I support you 100% in expressing your anger. I think the world would be a much healthier place if more people were willing to express anger.
So thank you for that.
Thank you so much for this video.
I have had my own personal experience for years with the frustration and damage of dogma in the Weston A Price Foundation. I have been working with children with autism for 15 years. I have spoken at over 50 conferences and events, at all of which I’ve mentioned traditional foods and the Weston A. Price Foundation specifically to thousands of families. I have seen the nourishing effects of these foods with families and was one of the first people to connect autism nutrition and nourishing traditional foods many years ago (I wrote my book in 2005 and an article from 2008 published in an Autism Magazine about The Science of Traditional Foods for Autism – https://nourishinghope.com/ ). And I live these principles myself. Despite my years of research and clinical nutrition experience, and walking my talk, Sally never showed respect for me, nor invited me to speak at a conference, or publish my work.
It started when I wouldn’t get on board with the fermented cod liver oil “principle.” For my autism population, who were extremely vulnerable to heavy metal toxicity (and secondarily because I never felt quite comfortable with the fermentation of oils), I did not recommend fermented cod liver oil. This was her first “impression” of me, and (it seems) I’ve never “recovered” in her mind. Since then, there are additional things that she cites that make me not “worthy” of a speaking spot or further attention. These items of disagreement can be categorized in to one of two things: they are either because I didn’t recommend things that the Weston A Price sanctioned because the scientific research differed from the WAP message, such as I recommended vitamin D supplementation; or personal opinions she has of me personally not being on board and serious enough about their principles, which is the most baffling part because I live these principles with my child and family daily and her misconceptions are untrue, but she has never seen the truth no matter how much I explain myself.). In the end, we agreed on 90% of the information, but she could not see past these small differences. It’s too bad because I have experience that could help the 1.5 million families with autism in the U.S. if I could get the message out.
I’ve felt pressure for years to just fall in line and spout the dogma to get her favor. But I was unwilling to give up my integrity (I could not ignore the research), and now I’m glad I didn’t. I could see for years how dangerous this dogma is to an organization. We cannot advance the field of nutrition if not all opinions and perspectives are valued and respected, and inaccurate information cannot be investigated and possibly corrected, such as what we are seeing now when people are unwilling to consider other possibilities. Add to that I had my own very real experience with the clique’y environment that develops when you are either “in or out” with the leader. I had a very upsetting experience at a conference several years ago of being verbally attacked by two WAP members to the point I was quite traumatized: I never finished the project I was working on and have never been back the conference since. I have met many good friends and lovely people within the organization doing good work. However, when an organization has such a top down strategy such as theirs, those at the top have serious influence over the culture of the organization, and I saw firsthand how hurtful and destructive it can be.
I think it’s important that we embrace broader perspectives, understanding, and experiences – avoiding adherence to any person’s paradigm because there is great variance among us. Lets all agree that good food and nutrition are vital to us all, and do our respective best to champion that message together.
Thank you Ann Marie and Annie for starting this discussion. I feel a sense of hope and camaraderie again.
Hi, Julie
BIG HUGS! Thank you so much for your comment. Just the other day I was going through photos from old WAPF conferences and I came across one of the two of us. <3
You know, I remember people saying bad things about you. That was the rumor going 'round.
I think in 2011, I even recommended that you speak at the 2012 conference (could be getting dates mixed up but I think that's right ) and someone said something to the effect of you being difficult and hard to work with.
I've had people say things like this about me. Even very recently. "She's difficult and not a team player." This is very damaging to our reputations. In a shame-based culture that is fearful and focused on scarcity, this is how members of the group are treated.
It sounds like the truth is, it wasn't that you were hard to work with as I was led to believe, but that you were asking questions and you were challenging the status quo of the group. So you got punished and publicly shamed. I am about to write another post about this very issue on the blog so stay tuned.
I am so thrilled to hear from you again. I look forward to collaborating with you in the near future. Perhaps we can do a Skype podcast? I'm going to be putting all my interviews into a podcast series on iTunes (they'll also live on Youtube and my blog). I am so committed to helping families with children on the spectrum. This is my big passion.
Email me please at annmarie @ village green network dot com and let's figure out how we can support each other.
Hugs! Ann Marie
Ha – apparently “difficult to work with” means “difficult for the Weston A Price Foundation to work with because she won’t blindly buy into the dogma.” While I find this sentiment quite comical, the underlying implication is the opposite and quite painful.
I thank you for your honesty Ann Marie. I find it difficult to hear that people were saying bad things about me… and behind my back. It brings up a great deal of shame and humiliation in me, not to mention serious potential damage to my reputation.
Thank you for sharing this honest feedback. It has so much potential for healing for me, not only over this chapter of my life, but for so much more. I’m grateful for that. I will contact you. I feel this needs to stop, or at least that I don’t want to be part of it. I’m glad you will be part of something new and hope that this new venture will be created from a place of honesty and integrity both scientifically and interpersonally. I’d be honored to be part of the change.
Julie,
It is always awful to hear that people are saying bad things about us behind our back. I know how painful it is to be publicly shamed after I went through all that I did last year. I’m glad I went through it, though, because it made me stronger, and it made me hyper-aware of how much it hurts.
I am 100% committed to never shaming anyone else again, in public or in private. Will I be able to honor this commitment? I don’t know — I’m sure I will make mistakes and mess up. But when I do, I will recommit.
If you haven’t done so yet, check out Brené Brown’s book, Daring Greatly and Jon Ronson’s So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed. I listened to both books this summer and they helped me greatly.
NOTE: I modified a couple of the comments above, including my own, because I realized I publicly shamed someone and allowed Julie to do so in return.
Change starts with me — I just recommitted.
Thank you everyone for helping me stay accountable.
I will definitely check these books out. After having this experience I realize how much fear can surround shame and that it can inhibit us from living our lives or being authentic. I’m committed to being authentic at this point in my life, so I’m willing to sit with the uncomfortable sensation of shame in order to grow from it and be stronger. BTW, did I publicly shame someone? If I did, I want to know, as I want to be “better” too. I’ll connect with you on email soon.
@Julie
Thank you for joining me in my campaign to end public shaming. I, too, am committed to being authentic and holding myself accountable.
Yes, we both shamed someone in our comments above. I’m the one who started it by naming the individual who said bad things about you. It was not necessary to say the name of the person who did it. I could still make my point without doing that. And I could have also emailed you privately to say what I did instead of posting it publicly for all to see.
Which is why I removed those comments. While I believe what she did was wrong, it’s not necessary to call her out publicly on that.
It’s a fine line trying to figure out how to hold people accountable for their actions while at the same time, not publicly shaming them. That is why I’m trying to be so careful in my videos, my blog posts and in my comment moderation policy to be respectful of all parties involved.
It’s not always easy… and I’m sure I’m making mistakes along the way. I will continue to ask for feedback from readers and community members to let me know when I make mistakes.
In fact, I think I will add that to my comment policy — asking people to please comment if they see the comment policy being violated by me or anyone else.
Hi Jen,
I understand being angry. Especially if you feel like you’ve been injured by someone else’s actions. You said Dave ‘doesn’t deserve hugs, he needs a slap back to reality.’ The sentiment isn’t lost on me. The problem is that strategy doesn’t work.
We don’t effect a lasting change of heart in one who is misguided by attacking them; as in public shaming. For someone to admit they may have been wrong requires a particular kind of social safety. In other words, how likely is it that I’m going to come forward of my own volition and take responsibility for my mistake if I know the mob is outside my door with clubs held high?
This conversation is a great one because it highlights the difference between a ‘tribal’ and a ‘mob’ approach to dealing with a misguided group member. Tribal discipline is informed by love. It has as its objective, redemption of the lost one and eventual reconciliation with the tribe. Shame has no part to play, because tribal wisdom dictates that we are all the same flawed human beings, and as such are subject to error.
A mob wants only vengeance, and will be satisfied with nothing less than blood. It is informed by fear and hypocrisy, and refuses to acknowledge that ‘there but for the grace of God go I’. Ironically it has its roots in the accumulated shame of the collective, and is in fact a form of scape-goating.
It has been said that every communication is ‘either love or a call for love’. I for one submit that our tribe of enlightened, ancestral wisdom-minded individuals should settle for no less than being an answer to that call.
Thank you, Annie. Your wisdom and grace are breathtaking.